The Whole Shebang

62. Being the “Nice Guy” Isn’t Working; From People-Pleasing to Grounded Clarity | Addison Shock

Jennifer Briggs Season 1 Episode 62

"So many partnerships are the mother and the little boy dynamic, and I was in that. That was like a huge reason of the collapse of a nine-year relationship. Part of what contributes to this issue is that question that we just asked, 'What do I do as a woman to help the man in my life?' And I just want to say that is 100% not the responsibility of the woman. They're responsible for their own emotional landscape. And two, that does further perpetuate in some way, how women seek in a crafty way to get the man in their life to be in his masculine energy. 

Women are shrewd, crafty and smart, it's a gift! But also as crafty as you think you are, the man is definitely sniffing that out. And what that most often is going to do is cause him to shut down because he doesn't want to be mothered. When he feels that, he responds like an ashamed little boy and shuts down. 

Women have told me they don't feel like the man in their life listens, or wants to please them, and I'd say it's the exact opposite. They deeply desire to please and deeply want to show up for and care for, but so often that opportunity gets taken from them because there's an overly masculine energy. The men feel, 'No matter what I do, it's wrong, so I'm not even going to try anymore.'"

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CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
07:57 Expressing Anger
12:09 Personal Growth and Learning to Forgive
24:50 Navigating Masculinity in a Changing Society
34:15 The Importance of Men Finding Their Voice
41:00 Women Trusting Their Feminine Energy
46:56 Inviting Needs with Love
54:41 Dynamics of Masculine and Feminine Energies
58:02 Balancing Feminine and Masculine Energy in Business
01:00:42 Creating Safety and Trust in Relationships
01:05:33 Inviting Men to Seek Support
01:07:10 Shifting Dynamics in Relationships
01:10:15 The Power of Encouragement
01:11:02 Vulnerably Communicating Needs
01:15:22 Navigating Isolation, Anger, and Anxiousness
01:18:45 How to Connect with Addison

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Addison Shock has worked in human development spaces for over 15 years. He is a Couples & Individuals Counselor as well as a Life Coach for men. For over 10 years, he’s supported men who are navigating anger, anxiety, relationship issues, lack of direction and the various pains of life. His goal is to help them develop emotional capacity, relational intimacy, healthy expressions of anger and sadness and support in developing a more calm, stable life that is good for them and the ones they love most.
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Speaker 1:

So many partnerships are the mother and the little boy, and I was in that. That was like a huge reason of the collapse of a nine-year relationship. For me, part of what contributes to this issue is that question that we just asked what do I do as a woman to help the man in my life? And I just want to say that is 100% not the responsibility of the woman. They're responsible for their own emotional landscape. And two that does further perpetuate in some way, like how can I look in a crafty way, get the man in my life to be in his masculine energy? And even that framework that's still felt, right. Women are very like crafty, very smart, very shrewd and it's a freaking gift, right but also as crafty as you think you are.

Speaker 1:

The man is definitely sniffing that out and what that most often is going to do is cause him to shut down because he doesn't want to be mothered and when he feels that, he responds like an ashamed little boy and shuts down. It does require the woman to intentionally trust and continually lean into their feminine, even in moments when it is not the most efficient and most logical. I'm not saying like you, just blindly surrender if it doesn't feel safe, but you also have to filter through like is this safe? Yes, is it like exactly what I would do in a perfect world? Probably not. Women have told me like they don't feel like the man in their life listens or wants to please them, and I'd say it's the exact opposite. They deeply desire to please and deeply want to show up for and care for, but so often that opportunity gets taken from them because there's like an overly masculine energy. No matter what I do, it's wrong, so I'm not even going to try anymore.

Speaker 3:

Welcome to the Whole Shebang. I'm Jen Briggs, your host. Let me tell you what you're in for here. Many of us have been running at breakneck speed, functioning mostly in our heads, and we've suffered from disconnection, burnout and lost passions. I believe it's because we functioned in part and not in whole. So we're exploring a new path, embracing intuition, creativity, playfulness and connection in all of life. It's vibrant, powerful and magnetic. So come on with me and buckle up buttercups. We're diving in All right.

Speaker 3:

Ladies and gents, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Addison Schock, who's worked in human development spaces for over 15 years. He's a couples and individual counselor, as well as a life coach for men. For over 10 years, he's supported men who are navigating anger, anxiety, relationship issues, lack of direction and the various pains of life. His goal is to help them develop emotional capacity, relational intimacy, healthy expressions of anger and sadness, and support in developing a more calm, stable life that is good for them and the ones they love most. Addis Bin splits his time between Costa Rica yes, you heard that right and Birmingham, alabama. He loves surfing, playing basketball and fly fishing.

Speaker 3:

So you might be asking, jen, if I commit this next hour of my precious life to listening to this episode of your podcast. What will I get from it? Well, I'm so glad you asked. Let me tell you Addison dives into a lot of topics, quite honestly, that I don't hear a lot of people talking so transparently about. We really lay the groundwork or he does, I should say for what's happened in our society.

Speaker 3:

Maybe one of the things that's been an underpinning of why we have some immature masculinity happening, which is that men have received messages in various ways, whether they're overt or not, that it may be in their best interest to sort of shut up, be quiet and get out of the way, and in doing so they've relinquished a lot of their sense of self and, I would say, power. And so he expresses the different ways that men can step back into a more healthy, embodied, emotionally available form of masculinity. And from there we talk about different relationship dynamics, women, how we might be able to support the men in our world, whether it's platonic or romantic, in stepping into their fullness and their wholeness. We talk about different sort of pro tips on how to navigate dynamics if you want more polarity within your relationship and, of course, as always, so much more. Take a look at the show notes if you desire. Otherwise stay right here and buckle up my little buttercups Enjoy.

Speaker 4:

Thank you for joining me today, excited to dive in. I would love to start, if you're okay with it, just a little bit about your background, what your work is and how and why you got into this work.

Speaker 1:

That is a great question. Now I'm doing life coaching specifically with men and I've really extended that age range. I would say that I have kind of two demographics that I work with specifically. One is still that kind of 18 to 25 guy who's sorting things out and attempting to kind of get their life together in some way and, as adolescence is, particularly for men, kind of extended into their 20s, trying to help them like put pieces together, establish healthy patterns, establish boundaries, figure out what they want to do career-wise. Like so many.

Speaker 1:

It's a confusing time is my experience with a lot of those men right now, young men particularly. They're trying to like sort things out and it's tricky for a lot of, a lot of different reasons, um. And then the other demographic is like 25 ish to 40. And a lot of it centers around relationships, largely because relationships are where they're finding pain points and what's happening is a lot of the same issues that were there from like 18 to 25 that never they never fully worked with, are now just showing up in their relationship. So it's a lot of the same work, but it's kind of through the lens of relationship, because that's where they're experiencing like friction and pain points.

Speaker 4:

That's great. So let's talk a little bit about what the pain points are. What are some of the common themes or pain points that you see come up with the men you're working with?

Speaker 1:

I would say that, on some level, like every man I work with has come with one of a number of things, whether it be like anger, anxiety, some form of like apathy or like lack of motivation, some form of like apathy or like lack of motivation, um, and then, obviously, within relationship, like, uh, lack of emotional um capacity or like openness in any way, emotional vulnerability and, um, and usually kind of tucked within that, those, those major markers of like anxiety and anger, are causing them to shut down in so many ways, and so, therefore, they're in a relationship with a partner where, uh, they're not able to fully show up and they don't have a, they don't have a great uh understanding of their own emotions, and so what is it about?

Speaker 4:

sorry what? Go ahead and finish what you're saying. No no, you go ahead, go ahead. What is it about the anger and anxiety that's causing them to shut down?

Speaker 1:

I can speak from my own experience of this. I'm someone who never wanted to kind of be that like tropey angry man, because I saw that in many different capacities growing up, and so what I did is I just completely suppressed all of my anger and it was like I, I won't show any anger because I didn't want to. I didn't want to like express that and have it be scary or be rage or or in any way. That wasn't good. But then what happens is because I never expressed anger, it just built and built and built until it came out exactly the way I didn't want it to, as like rage, and so that's a huge thing I work with men on is like how do we? Anger is normal and when we express it in healthy ways it's totally fine, it's good, like we all get angry, and so trying to teach men how to express the anger that's there in a way that doesn't impact themselves and the people around me that they really love, so how do they do that?

Speaker 1:

Uh, the shortest answer is to express it. I have a. I have a. I have a practice with with my partner where we like very much give each other the space to be angry with each other and um and so what that might look like.

Speaker 1:

Like this past week I, uh I've just got back down to Costa Rica last week and it's been like a, a beautiful welcome in that like haven't had lost wifi for two days, didn't have water for three days.

Speaker 1:

My car is back at the mechanic. Like it's just been like thing after thing after thing and I've been like really frustrated and angry about it. And because I've kind of established this container with my partner, it's like I'm just going to take about 10 minutes and be angry, not angry at you. Uh, I'm just really frustrated and angry at the situation, so I'm just going to kind of let it out. I'm just going to talk and get it out and express it, and she just holds space for it, um, and allows me to kind of move it along, and then I'm like, okay, I feel good and so doing that instead of being like everything's fine, it's okay, and just pushing that anger down and then me throwing a fit because the car won't start again and then like throwing a shoe across the yard or something right Like that's, it's a. It's a better option to get to move it along. And.

Speaker 1:

I also. I also practice that with my partner in that, um, she has permission to be angry at me. And, uh, we have a practice at the end of every kind of like fight that we have, where I just ask, like, is there something you need me to hear that you feel like I haven't heard yet? And that's permission for her to get to just say whatever it is that she wants to say, and it's in a container that I know that, um, I'm not going to take it personally and it's not something that I'm going to react to emotionally. In return, I'm just going to let her, like, get it out. And then what she does is she gets it out.

Speaker 1:

And the beautiful thing about in a relationship what that does is it prevents her from building resentment because she got to actually express the anger that she had, maybe towards me, that's fine, she's allowed to had, maybe towards me, that's fine. She, she's allowed to be angry at me and, um, in some way, I like celebrate that. It's like get it out. I'm I'm frustrating to live with at times. So let's like, let's get it out.

Speaker 3:

It's so good.

Speaker 4:

I like how you said that she holds space and that you're holding space for it, because it feels it's a different position than to be like we're in it warring at one another. It's like you're angry, we're a team. I'm gonna hold space and and witness your anger. Is that a fair way to put it?

Speaker 4:

sort of just like witness it and then also know that it's not, that it's not at me necessarily, it's not per, it's not like attacking right um, and in that I'm thinking a couple of things. One you've established trust or boundaries or rules. I'm not really sure what the right words are around that right, because you've expressed that in the past you've had angry outbursts that weren't necessarily healthy, and so within that, can you help kind of flesh that out a little bit? What? What might the setting of the foundation for that container in a relationship look like? Are there rules? Are there boundaries? Are there like we're going to approach it this way and not that way?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, uh, that's something that we have been like figuring out since the beginning of our relationship, and I think we I think we probably will be our entire relationship Right, because we're always shifting and growing and so, yeah, there's certain things where it's like, hey, this is, this is off limits. Like, hey, this is, uh, this is off limits. Uh, I'm somebody that whenever I like whenever I get like completely overwhelmed and fed up, like I need to like leave. I have like so much energy, I need to leave. And that's been something where she's like it really impacts me when you leave and I'm like I'm not, I'm not going anywhere. I like literally go sit in the car, but when I've done that, it's really painful for her. And so that's been something where she said, hey, we can like pause and take a break, but can you just still stay in the space? And so now I know like, absolutely no matter how like blown out I am, I'm going to stay and we can just be quiet. We can do what we need to, but I'm not going to leave to stay and we can just be quiet. We can do what we need to, but I'm not going to leave.

Speaker 1:

And I've asked the same of her Um, let's just stay where we are. It's like, and we've kind of figured these, these things out, like I'm, I'm someone, when I don't uh, when I don't know what to say, I cuss and I'm and I'm not, I'm not cussing, I'm not cussing at her, but I'm cussing and and that it impacts her, and so that's something she's asked. She's like can you, can you find other words to use? And it's like yeah, I can. And now, like I don't always nail that, You're still human, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I know and um, but those are ways that we've, like we together have have. It's funny, she, I'm like I'm a big debriefer, I love to what do we see. And those are times where we, um, we kind of established those, those rules or that container for, okay, this is going to happen again.

Speaker 1:

So then, how do we want to do this in a way that really supports us and I think the thing that that has I mean by that is like we, because we we kind of established that container, we we really move through things and we we kind of know now and like pick up those bits of information from each other and know how to support each other. In a way, I feel like so much of a healthy relationship is like learning how to fight, because it's going to happen and so how do we, how do we do that?

Speaker 1:

How do we learn how to fight and establish the container and kind of the rules, if you will?

Speaker 4:

That's great. I want to go backwards a little bit. So you I mean when we chatted prior to this you had shared that you weren't always this man right, you're growing, you're evolving, you have different experiences in relationships I think you used the phrase I had to learn the hard way. Can you share a little bit about that, what it was like prior Mm? Hmm?

Speaker 1:

I, um, I spent a lot of my life, particularly in my like twenties and into my thirties, um, really needing to grow up but, um, not really knowing how, or not really having the motive I don't even know how to exactly articulate it I just like didn't, I didn't, I didn't grow up, and that was something that that impacted a lot of people around me, impacted friends, it impacted um a marriage, impact a lot of things and, uh, it took a lot of like pain for me to start to.

Speaker 1:

I think I always realized it, but I felt like I didn't know how to like navigate it in a way that was, um, that was good or that like made sense or that was healthy. And so I, I, I was like pretty weak and pretty, uh, immature for a long time, um, and I think the the thing that I, as I as I always reflect on that time, I think the thing that more of a huge motivator is like the amount of pain that I caused within that, and that's something I've had to spend a lot of time like forgiving myself for and like really understanding. Like me, I'm someone who like self punishes and me.

Speaker 1:

And that was that was a reason why I didn't grow up for so long is because anytime I would do something that impacted someone, I would be so hard on myself that I just took all the space out of the room and the relationship that there was never. I couldn't actually be there here the person that I had hurt, because I was so ashamed. I felt so much like, um, almost like hatred towards myself that I had hurt someone, and it was the process of me learning how to like, forgive myself, understand that I'm going to impact people. That's going to happen and that that's okay. But what's actually more important is my capacity to be with them as I've impacted them negatively, and continue to make it about them and give them the space to like process what they need to. And, um, yeah, that was a huge part of me growing up. Uh, and it was. It was terrible, it hurt like hell, but it was really necessary.

Speaker 4:

What do you mean when you say it hurt like hell, Like what part of it was was terrible?

Speaker 1:

Um, I mean, I think the the end of a relationship, the end of a nine-year relationship, was, uh, excruciating, and uh, I didn't. It's funny I'll often say, like I feel like I've been to hell and back. Like I, I think my biggest fear was, like being alone for so long. And then I remember a few moments of like literally being like on the floor in my house, completely alone, feeling like I had nowhere to go, and it was like this is the thing that I have tried to avoid for so long, and because I tried to avoid it for so long, it's the thing that came true. And then, what I realized, though and this was it was a great moment for me.

Speaker 1:

Where I was, I remember being on the floor of my house, like in a pile and, uh, not knowing what to do, where to go. And then, ultimately, what happened? Though is it? It just passed, and I was able to get up, and I didn't think that was possible, and it kind of gave me this new like I don't want to say confidence, but new understanding that, like I can be with myself in my like, darkest moment. I'm going to be okay and, um, yeah, and so it's. It's given me so much more of a capacity to be with myself in ways that, um, in moments that are hard, but just in general to like, exist in this body and this mind and and be.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, that's so powerful. I mean, we hear it often that like our most important relationship is with ourself, and if we're moving fast to even just conceptualize, what does that really mean? Like so, is it just self love? No, it's like really understanding. I don't have to run from my fear or my loneliness or my and it's really poignant what you said. I think it's so true. Those things that we run from and avoid are the things that end up. We create them because we aren't taking what feels like maybe in the moment, a really scary step but also can be a micro step towards. I'm feeling fear right now. I'm feeling afraid of being alone. Let me just like face that instead of letting years of it build up. But what a powerful moment to be in that right Is that? That is sort of that dark night of the soul, moment of like, oh, I'm in this darkness, I was afraid of being here and I survived it, and then you're like, oh, there's like this strength that starts to rise up, right, am I?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's like there's well and it's you know I, you know, it's like um, it's said, right, I don't know who says this, but it's like a known like what we. It's said, right, I don't know who says this, but it's like a known like what we, what we resist persists. And I'm like that is so true. And and now I feel like I'm at this like pretty punchy part of my life where I'm like let's lean right into it. It drives my partner crazy, right, because I'm like, no, let's just, let's go ahead and let's go ahead and knock it out. And that's actually been a, a, a growing edge for me, where I'm also learning like I don't have to, I don't have to process and address everything, because that that's a pretty, that's a pretty consuming. Uh, I'm an intense person. And so sometimes it's like you know what?

Speaker 1:

I think? We can just let this, we can let this lie for now, and we're okay so that's been a growing edge for me now too, yeah.

Speaker 4:

Uh, that's, that's really real, it's. I think I feel like when I was starting to kind of awaken to certain things, I was like I feel like I'm a lion cub, a lioness cub, kind of finding my way and being like can I grow? Now?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, oh, that's a good way to say that, yeah, it's like yeah, no, you don't need to attack everything, just hold steady.

Speaker 4:

It's good.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to think of that image. That's great.

Speaker 4:

When you said earlier that you were weak. What did you mean by that? And maybe I'm kind of have this secondary question in a relationship, if you have a weak man however we're going to define that and then how does that impact the partner and the relationship as an entity?

Speaker 1:

For me. I had this deep fear that I was, uh, like not good enough, and so what that created in me was this consistent desire to work and work and work and work to like prove that I'm good enough, good enough to be loved, good enough to be in friendship, like across the board. And so that's this like people pleasing side of me came out and I attempted to just do whatever I thought everybody else wanted me to do. And and what that did, is it like I there was no sense of like self-respect that I had. Therefore, I lost a lot of respect from other people rightly so, I would say because I there wasn't much to me to be respected.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was like super helpful and I, but I was like I was reactive and I was always trying to make sure everything was okay and I was like trying really hard and I had, like I lost myself in that.

Speaker 1:

And then a by-product of that is that I was really defensive when things were brought to me because and I wasn't able to articulate this until much later but I was so defensive because I was internally like I didn't even want to.

Speaker 1:

This action I took I don't even want to do. I did it because I thought that's what you wanted. So then of course, I fought it because it didn't even feel true to me in the moment and I used to be really defensive and I feel like I'm so grateful that, uh, defensiveness is something I've really, really worked on and the biggest way that I've addressed that is, uh, by making decisions that are decisions I feel that are best and then standing by those decisions. I mean I can hold it if it's my decision and I don't always make, I don't always make the right decision Right, but uh, if I chose to make the decision, I can hold that. I can take accountability for that. And for so long I was making decisions, I thought of the people wanting me to make and would you classify that as, like the nice guy you know?

Speaker 4:

have you heard? Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1:

In a lot of ways I and that's that's how I had gotten kind of weak, like I.

Speaker 1:

I didn't establish, I didn't like speak up for myself until it was in the midst of, like, for instance, a fight and things were, uh, already elevated, intense, and so so it felt like I was this, this, my, my sense, how I see myself now in that moment, is things will be brought to me.

Speaker 1:

I would get defensive about it, and then I would go into all the things that had impacted me that I hadn't said a word about because I didn't want to rock the boat previously. But so then I bring them up in the midst of something being brought to me, which then takes all the space from the partner to be able to actually be heard and listened to and like bring feedback to me. And so it was like I was like a kid, who, who showed up and then was like, okay, if we're going to like throw rocks at each other, I'll throw some rocks too, which is a pretty immature way to exist. And and I just was like weak and hollowed out Like I, there wasn't much to me, I didn't have, um, I didn't have the capacity to speak honestly at times to what I was experiencing in relationship or friendship and I didn't have the capacity to stick up for myself.

Speaker 4:

I think it's so. I mean, I, I want to hear your perspective on this, but in the work that I'm doing now and the conversations that I'm having, when we pan wide and go on this macro level, it seems to be this theme that that men are, or have had a challenge of finding a healthy form of masculinity, um, and like in the weakness. It's like, well, where do I find, how do I find my spine, my strength, my clarity, my um, yeah, my clarity and my strength for how I'm going to move through this world in a way that's not going to be fill in the blank. You know, offensive, obtuse, um, like selfish, you know Um. So if we can like pivot maybe it's a little bit of a pivot here and talk about kind of that form of of masculinity, maybe what you do you perceive that? First of all, question number one do you perceive that as a theme in men?

Speaker 1:

Yes, short answer.

Speaker 4:

All right, let's talk about that. What other thoughts do you have on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have. I have a lot of thoughts about it and and um, I would say that, for for the generation of men, like, I would say, like I mean kind of across the board, but particularly like millennial and Gen Z, um, there has been this incredible kind of social push for more equality across the board, and so so many different people, groups that have been marginalized for so long, we're finding like progress and movement. And I'm like a straight white guy from the states right and uh, and so I, I for so long thought that my place in all of that movement was to like shut up and get out of the way, and at times that's true. But so what I learned, and I think what a lot of men, particularly kind of in my like makeup have have learned in some ways like you need to be quiet, you need to be small, don't be a toxic masculine man, and like, get out of the way, which then just creates a lot of weak men, because it doesn't. That's why I like, I don't, I don't use I don't use the term toxic masculinity because I don't think there's it doesn't give a path for what the opposite of that is. It's like, well, what's the opposite of toxic masculinity or just not toxic, it's like okay.

Speaker 1:

So I like to use healthy and like, or like mature and immature masculinity, and so what that creates is very immature masculinity, where there's a lot of men who are suffering in silence with the things they're experiencing. They don't feel like they can speak up and speak to what's happening for them because it doesn't compare to what other people have experienced. And I think it's a dangerous game when we get into the place of like, comparing experiences of like how hard life is, like human emotions or human emotions and what it's created and this is what I thought for a long time is like I don't have a place to share and speak about the pain that I'm experiencing in life, so I'm just going to be quiet and eat it, and that's going to make me emotionally unavailable at times. It's going to make me not unavailable at times. It's going to make me, um, not have a sense of myself. It's going to make me really kind of weak and quiet and um, uh, or immature, and when I do speak up, it's in immature and unhealthy ways, and so that's a big part of the work that I do is is attempting to help men understand like no, you, you're allowed to. No, you, you're allowed to speak to your needs and you're allowed to get help. It's actually good for you and it's also good for the people around you, like very much.

Speaker 1:

So I remember I went to, I got my master's at Vanderbilt and I was speaking with one of the deans of the school I was in and and it's a very diverse community, it's like it was I loved, I loved the program. It was incredible. And I remember saying like okay, I'm, I'm here as like a straight white guy. So like I understand my role is to like, uh, like I don't really get a seat at the table because other people need that seat. And she was like, no, you've like completely missed it. Like the goal is just to add more seats, like you definitely have a seat at the table, we just need to add more seats.

Speaker 1:

And for me it was like, oh, I thought my role was just like to get the hell out of the way. And it was such a shift for me because then I had kind of clicked where it's like, oh, I have the right to be here and like I can take up space. Oh, I, I have the right to be here and like I can take up space, and if I actually take up space in a way that's healthy and good, it's good for the people around me, as opposed to not taking up space. And, of course, like, as humans, we all need to take up space and they're going to take up space at times, so I wouldn't take up space intentionally. Therefore, whenever something would happen, I would take up a lot of space because it was coming out in an immature way, and so it's actually been healthier for me to, like, appropriately take up space, and that allows more space for other people, as opposed to allowing immature me to come forth and like, like, suck all the air out of the room. That's so powerful. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1:

No, that's just a long, that's a long way to say that. But, um, yeah, I think that's like a lot of that has led to a lot of confusion for a lot of men, where they're very much like quietly, kind of suffering there they're, they're thinking like, okay, well, the, the woman in my life, she needs to be the priority and I need to, you know, prop her up and push her along, and then it's like I'll just kind of be over here quietly serving her in some way. Now, what's interesting is that what that creates, in my experience, is a lack of safety for women, and what I mean by that is I had this conversation with my partner last night where, like, she's got like a spicy side to her and she's like punchy and it's. I love it. I absolutely love it because we can contend with each other. Punchy and it's, I love it. I absolutely love it because we can contend with each other.

Speaker 1:

And I know there's a lot of moments where she's kind of like quote unquote, coming at me and what she's doing is she's testing if she's safe. She's like are you, can you, can you like meet me here and can you contend with me here? Um, if, if, if things go haywire. Do I like, can you hold yourself and like, be here fully and whenever, whenever you think your job is just to be quiet and kind of get out of the way, or whenever you don't, when you emotionally shut down, whenever you uh are just trying to people, please, the answer is you can't. You can't do that, like you kind of disappear and I disappeared for a long time and uh, that's not something I I do anymore, because it it's not good for anybody.

Speaker 4:

That's such a huge realization and I think that's that's really why I'm doing this podcast.

Speaker 4:

This is just like the, the instigating thing for me that I felt and sensed as a strong, independent woman and was like, well, I still, I still want to have autonomy, obviously.

Speaker 4:

I still believe in how equality and having rights and and all of that, and craving, craving and whether it's from a partner or the just the men in my life in general for them to um, show up, to take up space, like you, to how you put it to take up space and show up in that strength.

Speaker 4:

And my experience is I don't know if I have the right words from this, I'm just going to go kind of energetic on it but when that presence is around me, it is um, it is an igniting too. It does, it doesn't diminish me, it doesn't diminish what I have, and you've you said that I think in a in another way, that it allows other people to take up space in a different way, and I think that's kind of the nature of community, the nature of relationships, and it seems really maybe idealistic, but I'm like man, if everybody could become a more full expression of who they are, everything starts to click in a more healthy manner, instead of us operating from this place of just like deficit and desperation and loneliness, you know like, yeah, it's huge.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I, I, um, took me a long time to like put those pieces together, and that's part of the reason I'm passionate about the work that I that I'm in, because the men that I work with it's like it breaks my heart in so many ways because they feel like they have to put on this like kind of mask or like cloak, of like put my head down, kind of grip my teeth and just kind of grind away and they're just, they're a wreck, and so they don't have the capacity to show up emotionally in a relationship. They don't have the capacity to uh like I mean this in the best way like command respect, um, and and that's like I that that phrase in general can be really triggering like command respect, but I mean that in like the most beautiful way. It's like we as individuals all inherently deserve and have respect that is like should be granted, and there's moments where it's like, yeah, well, you, I didn't operate in a way that commanded respect for a lot of my life.

Speaker 1:

Um and I had to learn how to do that and it was again. It was hard, but I get to work with these men and help them like, put those pieces together and and they and they, they show up more fully and so they're more present with their kids and more present with their partners. They're, they're able to like, be and exist and they take up space, and then what that does is it creates safety for the people around them, and that's like that's what it's all about, right? We all want safety. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so how do we, how do we continue to create safety around this?

Speaker 4:

So what are some of the first? Like if a guy's listening today, or if there's a woman listening and she's like this is my partner, where does? Where does he start? Or what are some of the first steps you would take him through?

Speaker 1:

That's a. That's an excellent question, and this is. This is where it gets tricky right, and this is part of the. I've told you some of this, like the, the thing I'm aware of in my work. Women are so good at like finding community, finding support, like getting resources to to like go on their own journey of like discovery and and like kind of understanding their internal self, and men, plainly, are like pretty terrible at it.

Speaker 4:

I wonder, why that is.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I think I have a lot of, I have a lot of thoughts, um, I think a lot of it is it's like it's it's it's deemed as like weak.

Speaker 1:

A lot of it has to do with also the the deep sense of responsibility, uh, and like sense of like provider.

Speaker 1:

Uh, this gets into like very, very like, uh kind of gendered roles, and I I I'm not speaking to this in terms of like this is how it should be, I'm just speaking to how it like kind of plays out most often in terms of like this kind of masculine is like a provider, um, and I and I would say like I can speak for myself that's like inherent in me.

Speaker 1:

I like deeply want to provide for the woman in my life and she's an incredibly successful, badass entrepreneur, and so she like doesn't need me to do that, but but that's still a part of me where I'm like I want to take care of you, I want to support you. That's like inherent in me, and so I think that pressure is there for a lot of men and so they don't feel they have the time and space to do that. Also, I've heard this from so many men. They feel like because they have never really brushed up against their emotions in a really intimate and real way. They feel like if they open that box, that all shit's going to break loose and they won't be able to handle the responsibilities that they currently hold in their life.

Speaker 4:

Wow, is that ever true?

Speaker 1:

I mean, I mean, here's the deal, Like, yes, once you open the box, it like it's disorienting for a little bit, but what it allows is for you to actually get familiar with those emotions, understand them and get comfortable in the discomfort you could say with the emotions, which then allows you to actually like experience all the wonderful emotions. Or with so many men who are so shut down emotionally yeah, they don't. They like, they kind of have tunnel vision. They don't feel or don't experience a lot of the negative emotions you could say, or the painful emotions, but they also don't experience a lot of the negative emotions, you could say, or the painful emotions, but they also don't experience a lot of the beautiful emotions. They're just, they just kind of live at a pretty numb state, often not all men, but that's like uh a lot, and so, uh, they're terrified, if they even brush up against them at all, that they're not going to be able to uh manage what they have to handle, which is I get that in some way, it's like it's it's terrifying, right, especially if you've never, if you've never felt permission to actually explore your own emotions. You would much rather choose the known uh, like we will, as humans will always choose known suffering over unknown uh, potential of suffering, right?

Speaker 1:

So so many men who are like I'm okay right now, and at least I'm familiar with this level of suffering, so I'll just stay put as opposed to. Well, if I do this, I don't know what kind of suffering is coming. I don't know how painful it's going to be. I don't know how it's going to impact my life, even though there is a chance that I find a lot of freedom in this. I at least know this kind of lane, so I'm going to stay in it.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's really interesting, as you're saying, that I'm just thinking about my own experience or what I would say, sort of the beginning of my awakening, which was a journey into my feminine, my softer side, and and I would say that I largely, even though I was, I've always been a, um, you know, intuitive person or I can, you know, feel for the underdog and cry at a rom-com, you know all that stuff there was still this like lack of depth in my own experience and my emotion, and I remember it was grief. That was the first, that was sort of this pathway to opening for me, because I could really only avoid that for so long before. It just came at me then and then it. So I didn't really even feel like I had the choice and what. But once I got to that place and was like, okay, I'm going to open up this box, I don't know what I'm going to find, I'm scared, I'm not going to survive, and it became such a beautiful like portal into a depth of richness and all of life that I don't know if I would have experienced had I not been willing to go into that.

Speaker 4:

And I and so I think it's it's obviously gendered and in other ways, energetically. I'm sure we experience it differently, but I think it's probably like a human experience, and maybe more so even in our American society of like we're focused on production and focused on performance and a lack of communal connection and things like that, that. That, once we tap into that, I guess the question that was kind of sitting with me which is not a very profound question but for you is like, like, what is the reward on the other side of the work?

Speaker 1:

yeah it's funny. There's like, there's like the on like a very minute base level. There is a capacity to like sit and be with yourself and take a breath and be so comfortable in your own skin, and that in and of itself to me is just like, oh, like I feel like I'm alive, I'm like I can just actually be and I'm like I'm okay, I feel safe in my own body and I'm I'm okay, and that's that's like the at it's like most base level that right there is, just is is gorgeous because it's, I think, for the, for maybe the first time in my life when I've been able to sit with a level of clarity and calm that's beyond like anxiousness and it's beyond like stress and worry, and not that I don't get stressed and anxious and worried, of course, but like I'm okay with myself, I'm like okay in my own skin, and that is that is like one of the most incredible experiences on the planet. It's like I think how we're made to exist ultimately is to like get to that, that place. And then I would say the other reward is that you get to um, share that and be an actual intimate, beautiful community with other people where you can connect and be present on that level, Like to actually be with people in a way where it's like it's it's it's you live.

Speaker 1:

In a way that invites people to meet you on the level of vulnerability and intimacy and like authenticity and connection and it's like we can be right here together and we don't have to. We don't have to be. We're always running second tracks in our brains of things we're thinking, but to just be present with people and the pureness of a moment with full presence, it's astounding To me. It's like the richness of life. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And to get to do that with your kids, to get to do that with family, to get to do that with a partner partner to get to do that with friends, like that is such a beautiful experience and so, um, instead, and so that, opposed to the reality of like the loneliness, the isolation, the anxiety, the fear, the people pleasing, the perfectionism, like all the chaos of all the ways that we're like trying to stack ourselves and make ourselves appear in so many ways, but just to be like this is just me and I'm okay with me.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, that's tremendous. Yeah, it's tremendous.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I, I like, I always feel that he's all the offer, the caveat. It's like. I always feel that all the all for the caveat. It's like. I didn't feel that way yesterday, but it's like, but it's, it's like the, the, the capacity to get there, that's I'm always reminding myself of that Like can I drop back into myself in a place of safety and a place of like, care and support for myself and then that's so good for the people around me.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. So if I'm in a relationship and I'm with a partner that is in that chaos or he's, he is, I'm going to use your word week. Yeah, how do I, how do I, how do I help him, Like my, especially if you're like me, like strong woman, right, and I mean this is my story honestly, and as is probably for so many in a relationship where it's really easy to flip into my own. I'm going to use the terms masculine, right, Flip into my masculine and be like well, let me fix this, Well, let me take care of you. How about I? How about I become your mother? How about we play that archetype out and see how that works?

Speaker 4:

Um and for me, it didn't turn out it didn't work out real well and removed a lot of the, removed virtually all the sizzle from the relationship right, because I, unknowingly and unintentionally, was emasculating the man in my life. You know, like I was trying to help, I was really trying to help but, um, I'm sure it didn't feel great on the other end, and so what is a better approach?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, this is the. This is the ultimate question. This is like what, in the work that I do, I mean like the. The short of it is. There's so many of the men that I work with. This is the thing that I'm trying to help them build is that level of like self-respect and to help them break out of the of like self-respect and to help them break out of the dynamic of the mothering experience. Right, it's like so many partnerships that are the mother and the little boy yeah, and I was in that. That was like a huge reason of the collapse of a relationship, like a nine year relationship. For me. I was a little boy and, um, I think the. I want.

Speaker 1:

I want to say one thing about this that's really so complex and that is that so often, I think it, uh, part of what contributes to this issue is that, even in like this question that we just asked like what do I do as a woman to help the man in my life? And I just want to say, like that is 100% not the responsibility of the woman. It's like because that, even further, I mean, one, it's just not they're responsible for their own emotional landscape and two, that does further perpetuate in some way like, okay, how can I like in a crafty way, get the man in my life to be like in his masculine energy and even that framework? That's still felt right. And women are very like crafty, incredibly crafty I love this conversation right now.

Speaker 1:

This is really real and very, very crafty, very smart, very shrewd and in a in a, it's like it's a freaking gift, right, but also as crafty as you think you are, the man is definitely sniffing that out, yeah, and what that most often is going to do is cause him to shut down because he's like, uh, he doesn't want to be mothered yeah. And when he feels that he responds like an ashamed little boy and shuts down. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I would say that, when it comes to like okay, what can a woman do? And again, this is me saying this, understanding that the responsibility is 100% on the man to handle his own shit, and I say that with a lot of love, like that's something I'm like, that's, that's why I'm in the work, that I'm in Cause I want to help with that. But I would say that, as it takes both partners to make this happen, it does require the woman to intentionally trust and continually lean into their feminine, even in moments when it is not the most efficient and most, uh, logical. Uh, it has to be safe, right? Like I'm not saying like you just blindly surrender if it doesn't feel safe, but you also have to filter through, like is this is this safe? Yes, is it like exactly what I would do in a perfect world? Probably not. Right.

Speaker 1:

So I was having a conversation with a friend the other day and, uh, her partner had basically said, like they want to go to movie and so she had a full day. And so he was like, uh, I'm going to handle it, I'll like, I'll take care of it. And we're having a conversation and she was like I'm really angry because he was going to take care of this, but he chose this movie theater. That's like across town and the traffic's going to be terrible. And she's like this is why I just feel like I should always do it.

Speaker 1:

And it's like pause, do you want to be in your feminine or not? Right, like, because there has to be a transition in this experience and it's not going to be seamless. And so, like, if you want to go to the perfect movie theater, cool, you can have that, but you're also going to continue to have. Uh, you're going to like, he's not going to be in his masculine and he's going to not want to pick the theater the next time. And so it's like, if you want to be in your feminine, just go, and maybe you sit in traffic for 20 minutes. Who gives a shit?

Speaker 3:

Like, like, just it's such low stakes.

Speaker 1:

It's such low stakes and I feel like that's the, that's what it takes, and there's also still a capacity to get feedback. It's like go have a good time, get over it. Maybe you enjoy listening to music in the car for an extra 45 minutes. It's like enjoy it. And then you can also, like afterwards, say like thank you so much for picking. What if next time we go to this place, cause it's a little bit closer, maybe we don't sit in traffic and that I guarantee that man's going to be like that's a great idea. I didn't think about that.

Speaker 1:

And he's going to remember that and the next time he's going to do that, cause like he, I think, oftentimes women my experience women have told me like they don't feel like the man in their life listens or wants to please them. And I say it's the exact opposite. I feel like they deeply desire to please and deeply want to show up for and care for, but so often that opportunity gets taken from them because there's like an overly masculine energy and it's like, no matter what I do, it's wrong, so I'm not even going to try anymore. And so that's the first thing I would say like what do you actually want? And in low stake moments, can you just choose to be like let's do it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that's great. And I would say the second piece of this is how can you continually invite the man in your life, into your own space and into, like, the work that you're a part of and what's going on? Into your own space and into, like, the work that you're a part of and what's going on? And that word invitation is very, very important there, because an invitation involves such a level of vulnerability and openness and that is very different from uh, like commanding the man to or demanding the man to or expecting him to. But can you invite him into, uh, into your life, in your feminine energy, which is going to continually boost his masculine energy and allow for there to be like to fit in the way that you want it to?

Speaker 4:

Can you give an example of that Like what, what an invitation would sound like? Or a scenario.

Speaker 1:

Yes, um, yes, I, my, my, my partner and I both, both cook. I love, I love giving like very real examples that have like just happened yeah um, I don't respond well when saying when I feel like things are expected of me and it's like I'm supposed to do it, it, and if I don't do it, then I'm like in trouble, right, it's like comes back to the mother relationship. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so, for instance, whenever, uh, whenever the trash is pulled out of the trash can, like just set by the door, and there's this like level of like. It seems like what you're expecting me to do is like walk the trash down the driveway to the to the trash can, and I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do it. It's like not that big a deal whatever. But what my partner has also done in such a beautiful, loving way is she comes to me and she says, hey, I love you, can you please take the trash out? And it's like, yeah, of course, thanks for asking, like happy to.

Speaker 1:

I love to show up for you in ways that feel good for you and that, like men respond so much to like if you clearly articulate what you need and thumbs up, if you clearly articulate what you need and and what you um, how we can support you, it's like, it's, it's incredible, like so then you get your needs met and also I get to meet your needs. That's all I want to do, like I'm trying all day to meet your needs, like I'm trying all day to meet your needs. And so, whenever you can continually like articulate that with a lot of love and a lot of grace and a lot of like. I would say invitation as opposed to expectation, or like demanding, or it's going to be received so much differently.

Speaker 4:

It's so good. I think in my experience too, it's, and in talking with women there is when you're in your masculine and you're scared of being vulnerable. It requires something different of a woman just to even express what that does for her. So to be able to say, oh, it feels so good to not have to walk out on the ice and take that trash out, like, thank you for doing that, or could you, could you help me with that? Is it's coming from such a different place than, like, I just cooked, you do that, or whatever it might be, but I think that's part of what I've worked hard at is that sort of responsiveness and overflow of of like what it's doing for me, share, sharing what that does for me. I don't know if that resonates with you at all, but I think that's something that has been a practice, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well, it gives a, it gives a path for like. It creates clarity around, like how I can actually show up for you, and that's all I want. I'm like looking for ways to show up for my partner every day and whenever. I have like clear understanding of what that is. It's like men are pretty good at picking up on things, I would say. I would say, if you have a man in your life who is not picking up on like the breadcrumbs that you're laying around, it's because it's not clear, that you're laying around, it's because it's not clear. And so be clear, like be clear in a, in a, in a vulnerable way. And I would say that my experience with most men is that they will be like oh, I didn't know this meant so much to you. Heck, yeah, I'll do it, no problem.

Speaker 4:

So you said this earlier. You think that's the case pretty much across the board that men are like.

Speaker 1:

I want to support you, I want to find ways to yeah that is my experience of men, and if they are not doing it, it is because they feel like, no matter what they do, they can never get it right it's so classic, right, and women that are just nagging, nagging yeah, it's like over it's so it is.

Speaker 1:

It's such a funny, like all the tropey things that we've heard yeah, I'm like oh, I think that's actually like pretty true, weird, but yeah, I think that's true, yeah, it's it. And and so I'll say this too if you're, if you're a man who, who has a, a bad-ass woman in your life, who who falls into like, can fall into her masculine energy. This happens as a again my partner, she's like, she's got a punch to her and I love that most days, no, I love it. And there'll be times where she'll come from that masculine energy and what I'll do is I'll say, hey, I love you. You can ask me for what you need, like. Just ask me, I want to support you, I want to show up for you. Just ask, but please don't tell me.

Speaker 4:

And I bet you in that moment that just like shifts right, that shifts the energy.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, she, I think it's again, she's, she's like she's looking for safety. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so she's trying to create it on her own in her own masculine energy. And what I'm saying is like and I meet, and this is like with so much love and clarity. It's like I need you to take a breath and we're okay. You can ask me for what you need and then I can respond to that and show up with a lot of love and care. You don't have to tell me, you don't have to like expect it or demand that of me. Just ask and then let me care for you.

Speaker 1:

And and not that that always is like perfect. Sometimes it's like it it we have to go a few more rounds with like okay, it's just a moment where it's like just take the damn trash out, and I'm like we'll come back to this. Right, I'm going to take the trash out, but we'll come back to this, but it does, it does. I'm continually trying to provide a path for like I want to show up for you and I want to meet your needs and I want you like just ask me. You can be powerful in your feminine and ask for what you need, and it allows me to be in a masculine and it's good for both of us.

Speaker 4:

I just thought phrase, that's a huge takeaway ask for what you need.

Speaker 4:

And I see it with a lot of women in business and when I was coaching again, this is part of the whole framework of why I just dove into this topic is because, you know, I'm working at the time was working with and coaching a lot of like high, very powerful, very successful entrepreneurial women that were doing the same thing in their businesses and and there was turnover in their business, they couldn't hire the right people or keep the right people because they were showing up with this energy. Men do it too, right, but of like, very, very just, like demanding, and it's been an interesting, it feels like an experiment to me because I don't have a lot of role models and like how can I lead from my feminine Mm-hmm and so, even in a business setting, to go, oh, what does it look like to hire an assistant? And just be like, oh, could you help me with this thing? Like I would love some support right now, versus like, all right, this is your job, get it done by Friday 4 PM or you're gone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, and it makes so much sense, right? Because I think for and still, at times it's like because of the way women have consistently been treated in business. It was like a necessary, like this is the game we got to play, so watch me kick everybody's ass too.

Speaker 4:

And so it makes sense.

Speaker 1:

But I also I also am somebody who I'm like I I like think I should be living in a matriarchal society. I like powerful feminine energy is like the most incredible thing on the planet to me. Powerful feminine energy is like the most incredible thing on the planet to me and probably comes from like growing up with a mom and three sisters and like being around women my whole life, where I'm like like grounded, like powerful feminine energy is astounding. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I love it, I absolutely love it, and so, uh, yeah, but it makes a lot of sense and at times there's there's a there's a lot of what like my partner in business. At times there's there's a there's a lot of what like my partner in business. At times it's like she, she has to exist that way at times, otherwise she will get walked all over, and so I get that, and she's also really attempting to continue to integrate her own feminine power into her business and she's she's working that balance and of course then at times it bleeds into our normal life. We both work from home, so like, of course it bleeds into like when we're making lunch. So I have a lot of space for it, but my space isn't.

Speaker 1:

I make space for it not to like hey, stop, I don't like that. That's not the way I attempt to. When she's intermasculine, I'm never trying to be like. I don't like that. That doesn't feel good to me. You're making me feel not masculine. I always see it as like you don't feel safe and this is the way that you're attempting to like, make sense of everything around you. And so then how can I respond and just be in my masculine so that then you can just actually sink into your feminine, so you can feel safe. Yeah, oh, that's so good.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's been interesting, like the, the people that I follow or have been, you know, I've had Max on the podcast Trombley a couple of times, or just following John Wineland, and I'm hearing them talk more which I'm grateful for about the dance that we have, the union that we all have within us of the masculine, feminine and then sort of that, the art of moving in and out of that relationally and in our work, and I think last time I was chatting with Max, he had made the comment about, um, if we're, if women were only in our feminine, we are missing a part, and that was, like you know, I've had to swing the pendulum.

Speaker 4:

I've had to swing the pendulum to like practice, to practice being in my feminine. And so now, what does it look like? To reintegrate enough of the texture of the masculine when I need it, how I need it, where I need it, to execute, you know, to get things done, but not to over assert that, and it's been. It's interesting, right, and I'm not currently in a partnership, and imagine, though, that that's this dynamic of like. Okay, I'm in this arena, I'm doing my best to be a whole human being over here, so that I can come home and be a whole and find more polarity in the relationship, if we both desire that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I think that's a really beautiful point because, as it's easy to speak to like masculine, feminine and we all carry all of that energy in some capacity and that's actually a huge, a huge thing that I uncover with a lot of the men that I work with is actually some of the most beautiful parts of them are this feminine side that they have. That would support them. So it would. It would support their own masculine so much Cause. Again, it's just like a way to create so much safety across the board. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And yeah, it's like it's something I'm consistently working on with with men and in my own self. Right, I like I have a uh, I have a lot of feminine energy and I appreciate that so much about myself and I have a lot of masculine energy and that's something that I'm consistently kind of like figuring out how to weave back and forth within my own self. I love the language of it's a dance, absolutely is. And like when and how to bring that forth in different, different ways and and how in a, in a partnership, we can meet each other where we are within those spaces.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, yeah, when I think of, when I imagine a man that has got a healthy into, I don't even know if I want to say integration, cause I I always just like feeling it's already all there, we just have to uncover it. You know, but um has like a uh I'm just going to use that word integration of his, his healthy or a mature feminine, that one of the main sort of characteristics to me of healthy feminine is nourishment, and so for me that's a huge piece that I was lacking as a woman out of touch with with my healthy feminine, that when I integrated that nourished this dry crunchy like masculine in me. And I think for men to experience that from a partner that springing her feminine and can be nourishing is one thing, but then to also understand again, coming back to self, there's a way we can source from self in that and and reintegrating that.

Speaker 4:

You know, if we come back to like, how do I have healthy expression of emotions and allow that to even be a source of nourishment for this side of me? That's just been in this penetrating energy all day long, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's a really. I think that's really beautiful. I'm sorry I'm plugging, my light went off.

Speaker 4:

Oh, you're good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, good, um, um, I love the. I think that's such a beautiful point because the the internal feminine, has such a capacity to nurture and support and care for the internal masculine, and I would actually say that's a great way for a lot of men to step out of a mothering experience. That was that was really helpful for me. I didn't know how to care for myself, I didn't know how to like, uh like, nurture myself, and when I started to do that and stop expecting that from women in my life, what it did is it like, allowed the masculine in me to actually exist in a really beautiful way, and it continued to like, uh, allow the feminine within me to be this great source and I could work with them both really beautifully and it it it allowed me to meet my needs internally as opposed to consistently looking for them externally. Yeah, it's huge.

Speaker 4:

Okay, addison, what's been on your heart or mind that we haven't talked about? What do you wish that I would have asked you? What a great question, huh.

Speaker 1:

I feel like we did a great job.

Speaker 2:

We like covered so much okay yeah, I really feel like we did a great job. We like covered so much.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, I really feel like we did. I think I think, as we, you know, I really the part that I feel like is, I hope, the women that are listening here, and you know it's one thing to like listen to something and be like oh my gosh, you're describing the man that I'm in relationship with Like what the hell do I do? And I again just want to say like, in some ways again, when it's safe, actually doing less is what's so important, because even in this work, right, the ego like has such a capacity to to kind of trick us into like well, I'm being in my feminine and you're like trying to, in a really sneaky way, get the man in your life to be more masculine, and it's never going to work.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I heard somebody say once tell me if this would be resonant. I heard a woman explain once like if you're in that scenario, what if you just left it at? I believe in you, like I believe that you have everything you need and you'll figure it out, and you just kind of that's it.

Speaker 1:

And some of the women right now are like, oh my gosh, like how do I?

Speaker 3:

Well, there's a reality.

Speaker 1:

How do I do that If you're?

Speaker 4:

in like a pattern. If you're in years of a pattern and you're stuck in your own bias of how or your lens of how you see the relationship, the truth is a lot of women probably don't believe in them because they haven't. They haven't seen it and and all they've experienced is their own, their own experience of feeling like, well, he didn't pick the right theater, so I'm just gonna do it, because I don't believe he can do it yeah yeah, you know it's the, it's the chicken or the egg experience.

Speaker 1:

It's like, well, which one comes first? Um and and and here's the beautiful thing about relationships it only takes one partner to shift in order for the dynamic to start to shift. And that's what I would say like, can you, what does it look like to try it and have like some low benchmarks? It's like they're not going to nail it in the first week, but like, what does it look like to try that? What does it look like to try that? What does it look like to have some trust again when it's safe, when the risk is low, and just kind of notice the differences with a really gratuitous lens and see what starts to happen and see if it starts to shift. I mean, that's something where men want respect and it feels so good to be respected. And I think like that's what you're speaking to and it's like I really trust you and I really trust in you. And it's like there's a level of respect where it's like oh, okay, cool. Like there's times my partner does to me or show like come in and be, like I think you're doing a great job and I really appreciate where you're at.

Speaker 1:

No-transcript Does he, did I in my previous relationship. Did I always deserve that? No, but at times I did, and so I do believe if you're in a partnership, there is a part of that man that you do have a sense of respect and trust for. Otherwise you probably just wouldn't be with them at all. And so how can you, instead of seeing all the ways that they are, you know not that. How can we all humans work better with positive affirmation? We know that. And so how can you celebrate the areas where they are, um, being the best version of themselves and just notice what starts to happen. I guarantee you the, the, the man will notice. He'll be like what, what's gotten into you?

Speaker 1:

Like what, what changed and just try it and see what happens.

Speaker 4:

Would you recommend having a? Would you recommend that, just like? Let's just, you're quietly sort of experimenting and or this. What's coming to mind is this like would I sit down and go? Hey, like, if I'm going to own my stuff and show up and go, hey, I've been like over-asserting myself in this relationship and it doesn't feel great to me the way that I've been showing up, and so I just want you to know that my intention is to not to not do that anymore. It's not like try to try to take care of you or fix things. So I'm just letting you know I'm going to be working on really pushing some control, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I love that, and what I would add to that is to offer a path to where he can know how he can show up for you with a lot of care, which is going to then, in turn, give you more trust.

Speaker 4:

So what would that look like?

Speaker 1:

Great example. I, um, I this was. I share this recently and because it was, it's been such a profound shift for me. My partner, she, uh, she loves to make the bed. She like loves it. I don't care, I like, I'm whatever, I'm just I sleep in that bed.

Speaker 1:

But what I started to realize is that in the mornings, when the bed is made, for her to walk into a room with a bed made, it's not just about having the bed made, but it ultimately makes her feel safe. Plain and simple. It makes her feel safe. And so then now, what I've started doing, instead of her being like you didn't make the bed today, or like why isn't the bed made? Or like can you, I made the bed yesterday, the lens I now have it from, is like I'm not doing this because it's just something she prefers. I'm doing this because it's like good for her. I'm like her body and her soul and her spirit and everything. And so I make the bed every day and it means so much to her and it's so simple. But part of that's because she came and she told me that she was like hey, I love it when the bed's made, because it makes me feel like things are okay in my life, Like it makes me feel like everything's not chaotic. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And she told me that. And so then for me, it's like I'm going to make the bed every day. That's like simple. If that's what that does for you, I'll make the bed twice. I'll make it, and make it again. Like I don't care, I'll make the bed.

Speaker 1:

And so I would say, as a woman, can you articulate that? And then can you, with a lot of vulnerability, find one thing that you notice that you're consistently maybe, um, nagging about, or something that's consistently a source of tension, and can you really vulnerably communicate what it does for you whenever he takes care of that, and that clarity and that expectation for him? That's like the way the male brain works. He's going to be like I know this is something that's important and now I know why it's important and I can do that, I can show up for that. That's beautiful.

Speaker 4:

This is great, okay, addison. So people, so tell, tell the listeners a little bit about what they can expect from you, your work, if they're curious about learning more about how they could get support in for themselves or the relationship? Yeah sure.

Speaker 1:

Um, I mean like, short of saying, like, if there's a man in your life that, uh, you feel like we've been speaking about in some ways, uh, I'd love to work with them Like really simply. I think that's like a surefire way to. In my experience is that that, uh, I have so many stories of just it's really simple, but like ways to beautifully support men to step into, um, who they want to be and who is good for them and the people around them. The delicacy of that is that, um, it can feel very mothering again to be like, hey, you should go see this guy right, so what does she?

Speaker 1:

do so. I know it's like this. It's like this conundrum that is like women are the ones who have the most influence in the, in these men's lives. These men are not going to go get support on this is where she pulls out.

Speaker 4:

She's like listen, if you work with this guy and I can get in my feminine, our sex life is gonna going to just skyrocket.

Speaker 1:

Honestly, I am not, I'm not above that uh that uh scenario using that tactic?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely, it's absolutely real. Um, no, I would say this again how can, with a level of invitation of this is, if you feel like it would be good for him to work with somebody and you're somebody, maybe who's doing your own work, and you've been in this process and maybe felt alone in it for a while how can you really vulnerably invite him into uh, into exploring it? And my experience is that when men get on one call with me, that's all that's. That's what I say is like to women. It's like invite him to just jump on one call. I'm some random guy, but I'm also like a guy. I'm, I'm a guy and, uh, can you, can you invite him to just get on one call and just try it, no pressure, no expectation. And the thing that I've realized that men really quickly learn like I'm not working for their partner or their wife. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I'm working for them and they're my goal, like, yes, the woman in your life maybe got you here, but this is about you, yeah, and what I've noticed is, after one call, the men realize the value it has for them and they stick around 99% of the time and they're like, okay, I think this actually would be good. And it's like, yeah, let's do it. And then they get to opt in in a way that's good for them. And so, um and I know that's delicate, but it like it plays into that Like, how do you, how do you invite him with a lot of like, love and care into, into support? Because you've also you've also seen how you've also seen some of his pain, and that's the way I think it's helpful to speak to it. It's like you know that he's experienced some isolation and some like some anger and some anxiousness, and you know he feels a lot of pressure, like you've seen those parts of him and that's what he's actually going to get support in. This is going to be able to like navigate some of that with help, and then that's going to help you as a partner, because you're not the one who's having to emotionally hold the relationship together yeah right on yeah

Speaker 4:

in the conversations I've had with women over the last year, two years, three years, there's been a lot of like, where are the men, Jen, when you're talking to people ask them, where are the men, when are the good men? And and I was asking myself that question I'm like I can't find them on hinge very easily. I was like, where are they? And I was just like counting on my finger, I'm like, of course, because of the podcast, there's just more, there's more connection and network that's happening. But I'm like, oh, I'm I'm averaging a conversation a week with a man that's doing this work and that is so encouraging to me to have to have these conversations.

Speaker 4:

So, just like on behalf of the women, I want to say thank you for your work, Thank you for the work that you've done internally to to face those fears and to come alive fully and to um step into a space and answer that call to help other men step into that. I mean it's, it's for the individual, it's for the relationship and I firmly believe it's so. It's such a basic kind of ideal, but it is for the collective, it is for society, Um, so thank you for the work that you're doing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'll, and I'll. I'll say that right back. I think it has been the result of a lot of really incredible women being brutally honest with me and still caring about me, um, even when it wasn't, uh, easy to, and so it has definitely been a collective journey and, uh, the gratitude goes right back to the incredible women that have been in my life in various different seasons and in ways.

Speaker 4:

Beautiful. Yeah, we'll have all of your information on how people can get a hold of you in the show notes. Um, in the meantime, thank you so much. Thank you for joining me. Lovely, lovely Bye.

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