The Whole Shebang

Ep. 20 - Personal Mastery, Extreme Ownership, and True Transformation with Joe Whisney

January 31, 2024 Joe Whisney Season 1 Episode 20
The Whole Shebang
Ep. 20 - Personal Mastery, Extreme Ownership, and True Transformation with Joe Whisney
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

With a lifelong passion for sports and exercise led Joe Whisney, Navy veteran turned personal trainer and nutrition coach, went down a road of training people that he never thought possible. After spending five years active duty in Virginia, to Seal Beach, CA,  MBA and eventually co-owned and operated a boutique group fitness and personal training studio. Joe is someone that nearly every conversation leaves me thinking from a different perspective. Today’s episode is no different. Here are just a few of the highlights:

  • How to take extreme ownership to become your best self
  • Why Joe takes a tough love approach in his work
  • How to use regret as a catalyst for change 
  • What it looks like to be iron, that sharpens iron
  • What Joe sees in men, and what he believes is possible
  • Before and afters in the fitness world, and the real work of transformation
  • Dating apps and fears that hold us back from pursing connection
  • Jen’s silly ideas on how to meet new people, and Joe’s take on it. 

Connect with Joe:
https://www.instagram.com/joewhisney/

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Speaker 1:

This is the first time I've ever been a guest.

Speaker 2:

It feels weird. Why. Are we recording? Maybe, Um, I don't know Cause, like even just saying like okay, introduce yourself. And I'm like uh, yeah, I guess I'm Joe. You know, like I've never really done that before. It's like Joe the guy, joe the guy, joe the trainer guy, I don't know. I guess I don't have a spiel, I don't have like a 30 second elevator pitch of like who I am.

Speaker 1:

Tell me about your background. Tell me about where you grew up.

Speaker 2:

I grew up here, minneapolis, graduated from Wizedah back in the day, um, went to the? U after one year at ASU and then um, right before I graduated college officially, before I finished all my classes, I had a foreign language requirement left, but I left for the military. Okay, just like a little bit. After 9-11 kind of sparked it all up Are we, are we good here? What are you going to go on? Keep talking, okay, okay, yeah. So then I was in Virginia Beach for five years in the military, which was awesome and awful a little bit of both, but overall what was awesome and awful about it?

Speaker 2:

The people were awesome. I mean, it's just like military lifestyle is not super great, not super glamorous, but it was not that bad, obviously it was. I'm glad they did it. You know for sure I would do it over again in a heartbeat.

Speaker 1:

Um how long was that period of time?

Speaker 2:

Five years Okay, yeah, five years Again met some great people that I still keep in touch with. It's crazy, like how much you get to know somebody in a really short period of time. Looking back at during, it felt so long. It's like how much time do you have left as like being in prison, like how much time left on your sentence, kind of a thing, and it's over.

Speaker 2:

Um then, after that, moved home for a year, got into grad school out in, uh, california, and at the time they had changed the GI bill so they were going to pay for housing based on your zip code, and prior to me getting out, I wanted to be stationed in California. I mean, I ultimately wanted to be there, no matter what. Ended up out East, but that's another part of the story and anyhow. So when they revamped the GI bill and said they pay for housing, I'm like, well, I could have him pay for housing here in Minnesota, which would be fine, or California, which is where I wanted to be, which would be better. So I ended up up there for about eight years.

Speaker 2:

And then um was training out there, personal training, at an awesome spot called beach fitness and seal beach. Do you know where seal beach is no, so it's like right on the orange County, la County border. So it's like there's hunting to beach, sunset, seal beach, both really small, and then long beach. So it's kind of sandwiched between these really big cities, right, uh, excuse me. So that was awesome. Did that for you know, gosh, I was there for like a few years and then um helped open up another location, which was great. Ultimately sold that to some other trainers from that same gym. Um was there for a couple more years and then moved back right before COVID, which was kind of what did you go to graduate school for?

Speaker 1:

And business business so business. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, um, and then the idea of being like using that to help small business, which was the gym and there was really cool owners there and then a business consultant there who was no longer with us anymore, but he was an awesome guy, learned a lot from him. Um learned a lot about what to do, what not to do with, like the small business kind of gym scene, which is really tough. And then um just felt the calling to move back June 2019, which was kind of weird. It was one of those things where, like, it was very similar to what I left for the military. I don't I could tell you a bunch of reasons why I did it, but ultimately, like I just felt compelled to do it and I was scared to do it, did it anyway, ended up being awesome. Same thing when I moved home Don't know why.

Speaker 2:

I was doing it Really, didn't want to leave California but felt compelled to come back and then the world shut down. Covid got weird, Got everything weird, Um, and then my dad ended up getting sick, terminally ill with uh stop, geocancer. So I was able to be home for that. So it was actually really a blessing in disguise kind of a thing. And here we are now. Now I'm a trainer at Lifetime in Edina.

Speaker 1:

There's so much we could talk about. And we will talk about at least 45 minutes worth of things Cool.

Speaker 2:

Cool, we'll back it in what is feeling?

Speaker 1:

compelled to feel like to you, scary.

Speaker 2:

Like how did?

Speaker 1:

like. Do you feel it like in your gut, like what is? Do you have a thought that's just incessant, like what is what is being held?

Speaker 2:

It's like being pulled, like not like against, will you know, kicking and screaming, but like I don't know how I got to do this, like there's nothing, there's no other option.

Speaker 1:

There's just this is happening.

Speaker 2:

Whether I want to, you know, my ego wants to interject, or I'm like, no, no, I don't want to do it. It's like, no, this is this is happening, this is part of my path. I can't explain it, you know. You could say like, oh, it's God's calling its source, it's this, it's that. I don't know where it came from or why, but it just ultimately was like you're doing this. You know, like if you had asked me and I was growing up, if I would ever join the military but no, absolutely not that'd be ridiculous. And then something happens, things change and I'm being pulled in this totally weird direction that I never thought I would be in, which ended up being a blessing, right, yeah. Um so.

Speaker 2:

I think it's what makes it a calling is that I can't explain it. I don't know. You know, I don't want to be dramatic about it. It was just like this thing, like I'm not, I got nothing. It was just really clear to you and something else was clear, yeah. I mean the day I left for the night before I left for bootcamp, I was crying, like what am I doing? I literally don't know. I'm scared. There's a lot of unknown here, you know, um, but here we go. Hmm, kind of a thing, yeah.

Speaker 1:

I asked because I feel like if if I was going to join the military, I'd think part of my hope with this podcast and with things in general, is to help people figure out how to uncover their path, their truth, their calling, their, whatever it is. And so when I hear somebody say I don't know, I just had to do it, I like to ask well, how did you know? Because I think a lot of people don't know how they know, or they don't know what they should listen for, look for, or when they were. Like that's a crazy thought, I'm just not going to do it. And they just deny the knowing. So thank you for going down that path with me.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, and I think I don't know what it, why I'm like this, but it's like I had. Then I have to go do it. Do you know what I mean? It's not like I'm not really willing to just totally bury it, at least not for ever, because it will. It will like fester, you know, it'll create resentment or bitterness, who knows what, like if you don't just go for it. Sometimes you've got that faith, you know, and, and that it'll work out. Or like I was really compelled to go to California and none of that weren't according to plan. Right.

Speaker 2:

So, like there's like a lot of ego check you know what I mean A lot of breakthroughs really. Like man, I don't control nearly as much as I think, so I need to listen to these, this powerful other force, whatever that is, no matter what, whether I like it or not, I'm going to go for it and it could be very humbling. It could be very amazing in ways I didn't know. You know you got to be willing to almost be in awe of whatever, whatever happens. Like I said, I met incredible people. I had an incredible experience. I think I had a really good career for five years in the Navy relative to what I thought going in, but I wouldn't have known that I wouldn't have learned things about myself if I'd have like no, no, no, no, no, I'm just going to keep yeah.

Speaker 1:

I was just going to say. I feel like you learn how to learn about yourself, about your ego, about how lessons show up, Like all of that is a huge part of the process of the becoming yeah Okay. So, out of all the things you could have done, why fitness Like why, why that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it started in the Navy, so at the time this is like 0409 and like part way through, they were actually downsizing the military or the Navy in particular, which is why it was so hard to get the billet that I wanted when it was time to rotate from C duty to short duty. But what was happening is if, if people were failing their PRT the physical readiness test too many times, they would get kicked out.

Speaker 2:

Because it was just that it was like kind of low hanging fruit to like get rid of people and kind of thin the herd, right. And I was doing really well with those. And so they were taking people like me you know guys, girls who were doing really well and saying, hey, do you want to help these people who are struggling? Do you want to kind of basically be a trainer, right. And I'm like, yeah, sure, that'd be cool.

Speaker 2:

Um, wasn't my main job, but at the time that's also when I was like getting into CrossFit and that was kind of a big deal where I was like in Virginia Beach. I'm like, yeah, this would be awesome, like I'm learning a lot about myself as I'm doing it. I went to this place called CrossFit Virginia Beach. It was like, at the same time, like, maybe I can use some of these things to help these people, which it worked right. I mean, these are people who were 15, 16, 18 years in, who could potentially get kicked out before they hit the 20 year mark, which is kind of that like golden number to get your full retirement, all these different things. So I'm like, yeah, this would be great. And then ended up being something that I'm like this is, this is awesome. You know, got certified and all that and then, just kind of like, kept going down that road.

Speaker 2:

It was just kind of a I don't know very aligned, I guess, with kind of what I was interested in and then it really helped me like learn more about people, which ultimately, at the end of the day, is like my most. This is the world's fascinating thing to me, Like I think I've told you this before, but I have this selfish belief that everyone's here to teach me something Like. I can learn something from everyone and if I can like give back in the process that's what I'm going to do Then it's like a fair trade and I feel like training and coaching is very much like that. Do you know what I mean? And I get to see people grow, see people transform, see people go through things that they maybe maybe didn't think that they could.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, I'm down with that. Yeah, which is dope?

Speaker 2:

So it just it was like a really kind of a seamless thing and like I'm into it myself. So if I can help other people do it too great.

Speaker 1:

One of the things you told me. Well, let's just start with your tattoo. Tell us about your tattoo. Yeah. They're going to. You're going to have to go online if you want to see the tattoo.

Speaker 2:

So the three bands represents transformation, yes, and so what I mean by that is like, and part of this, keep bringing these things back to the military, because it was such like a pivotal point for me personally, because the whole concept is like, you know, a bunch of people get off a bus as civilians. Some have long hair, some have short hair, some are wearing this or that, or they come from all these different backgrounds. Some are from Dallas, some are from small towns, and Texas I mean Arkansas, they're all over the world, right and then you come in and then they completely strip you down from, like kind of, your civilian identity and they build you back up to be in the Navy or the Marines or whatever, because you have to, kind of, you know, conform to this whole other lifestyle so you can contribute right.

Speaker 2:

So it's a huge transformational process, One that they don't do on the way out, unfortunately, and that's a kind of a topic for another day is, like you know, boot camps nine to 12 weeks, but to get into the military, but to get out it's like two days. So they don't like do the opposite on the way back, they don't like transform you back into the military. I can do a civilian.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But anyway, that's a different, different topic. So what this represents for me is, like a lot of people, you know, you see it online, like you see these before and afters, and people think that transformation is very physical, right, so they see a physical transformation. Somebody went from 30 pounds overweight to not 30 pounds overweight, they went from fat to fit and all this stuff, but that's like the smallest part. So, when it comes to this tattoo, this first band actually represents the physical part of a transformation. Right, it's actually the smallest part. And then it.

Speaker 2:

What that means is that as you're starting the physical stuff, you're starting to realize it's a lot more mental and that's what the second part is. So this role, this physical part, rolls up into the second one, which makes it twice as big, right, and we're sending up through this transformational process. Then, through that process, you realize it's not so much about, like, even just the physical and the mental. It's really a spiritual component, right, so it's like the being part, and then so both of those combined actually get bigger in the spiritual sense of it, and that's why it keeps elevating up is because it's not, it's not about what you're getting, it's really not even about what you're doing, but it's about who you're being or you becoming in that process. Right, and I think that you know we get. The attention grabber is like the result, but the reality is is it's a couple steps prior to that of like the being, like who are you being while you're doing where you're doing, to get who you ultimately have.

Speaker 2:

Do you know what I mean? Yes, so, but I? But we get pitched it a way different way. Growing up, it's like, oh Well, I want to be a millionaire, so once I get a million dollars I'll do what they do and then I'll become one. It's like, no, you have to. You have to become one on the way, while you're doing these things that create this result, which is, ultimately, how do you give this value or how do you contribute to people on a larger scale, and you have to become somebody different. It can't be about you, right? So that transformational process it starts off, like I said, physical, then you realize it's more mental and then, as you're doing that, you realize it's neither of those and it's like you're becoming this whole other.

Speaker 1:

It's so fascinating to me that you are in, you're meeting people at the gateway and your passion is like what's way beyond that, or at least that's what I'm hearing. You say yeah. Do you find yourself coaching people on the second and third aspects, or are you really like when you work with somebody in a physical environment, are you focused primarily on like let's get you fit, and then do you just trust that, as they begin that process, it's going to open the door for the other two?

Speaker 2:

Well, I just know that it will. I know that it will, but at the same time it's what I thought at first is that I have to help people do it, but really it's like I have to support them in it. And the hardest part is like some people don't want to go there, go where, go to that place where you have to become somebody different, right To get the result. They just don't Like it's scary, it's the same with like that calling thing. It's like somebody on the outside or maybe they're hearing this and like wow, that's like really bold of you to do this and the other. Maybe they think that I don't think that, but maybe they do and like I could never do that.

Speaker 2:

Well, there's a lot of people like I can never become that person that I think that I want to be, or that I mean called to be Right, like my conscience is telling me I want to. So I put this. I put on a lot of stuff directed towards men and one of those things is like every guy, I believe, wants to be rich, ripped and respected. But to become the person who's rich, ripped and respected, you've got to do the work to get in shape. You got to do the work to make the money and you got to be a good leader and an example for people. Well, to be that is a lot. It's a lot of responsibility, it's a lot of pressure. It takes a lot of change, a lot of willingness to be humble in that process. It takes time, like all those things aren't not everybody wants to go through that and that's no fault of their own.

Speaker 2:

Like it's difficult, you know, so when somebody says that, okay, they're going to hire me, I'm going to be their trainer, it starts physical. So at a minimum at least I can teach them the movements so they have that skill set. It's very rare like the people really start to dig in and you know, I can think of only of the hundreds of people that I've worked with there's probably only a few that really like went all the way up this ladder and became someone totally different.

Speaker 2:

But those people had a really compelling thing pulling them forward and they were scared. There were tears numerous times with these people.

Speaker 1:

What was compelling them?

Speaker 2:

They wanted more out of their life. They wanted to have this other. They wanted this, this version inside of them. They wanted out into the world and they were going to do whatever it took to get there, even if they were scared, even if it was painful, even if they had to go to social situations and feel awkward. If they had to. You know what I mean. They were just willing to do. But most people aren't to get what they wanted.

Speaker 1:

How do you think these are kind of, maybe, obscure questions. We'll see where they go. But when I meet people that are that attached to a sense of purpose, I'm like how did they get that attention attached to a sense of purpose where other people aren't like I? Maybe that's too, I'm assuming something happened in their life where they had a fear of a health failure or like something that was like no life is too short. I can't live it this other way or something, but I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I don't know. I think a lot of it can be kind of dark. I think it's a lot of it is willing to be. You know like? I was just listening to this audio book, relentless by Tim Grover, and he talks about the dark side. It's like willing to go and own that part. That's like I have to be selfish right now to go live this life that I'm creating for myself, no matter what.

Speaker 2:

And that takes an incredible amount of. I mean, who, like it's so rare, right, because it's so difficult? The social pressure, the rejection, the what if it doesn't work? The fear, the failure, all these things can be like. Well, the smart move, the logical move, play it safe.

Speaker 1:

Right, I feel like I would have said that probably five, six years ago maybe. But I think the thing for me is that I've I got a taste of, like, the fear of staying stagnant.

Speaker 2:

What was that, though? What was it tasting?

Speaker 1:

Oh well, for me it was after my dad died right, and so then it was a huge, pivotal moment of like, oh God, life is going to be short. And if it's long, do I really want to live it? In fear of what? If? Like either it's so cliche, like choose your heart, but it's like either way you're going to have to face fear. If I don't pursue health and abundance and all of those things, then I'm living in fear of what's going to happen to my body and am I going to have money to make it? And like, either way, you're faced with difficulties and then I'm like, well, I might as well choose this one over here and have like the potential for amazing joy and pleasure in life. Versus this, I think there's a right, there's challenge, either way you go, so you might as well walk through the fire.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but I agree, I think you're for sharing that because, like loss can be a really obviously a pivotal moment, for sure. But I think it's also, you know, there's a lot of like, especially in the personal development space. There's a lot of like like happy, you know, positive like, of course, like that's important. But some of like the biggest breakthroughs I ever had is I would write out in my journal everything that I regret, what's making me depressed? Why do I have anxiety? Who am I mad at? Where's my bitterness Like? So when I say facing like the dark stuff, it's saying what am I afraid of? Write that out, face it. What do I regret? How do I make? How do I polish that rough edge? How do I keep the character that I want? You know that I say that I want. How do I become that person I got to look at everything that's making me who I am now Good and bad, right. So like people are big on like gratitude journals, like I'm not really that big on gratitude because I'm I live in a pretty grateful state as I like I just kind of am like that. It's more of like when I snap at the boys or I get mad at work or you know what I mean. It's like oh man, I really wish I wouldn't have done that.

Speaker 2:

I regret that and, being okay going, I regret that I made a mistake. I don't want to be like that anymore. I did this, I did like. What did? Where can I? What can I own? That's not just these, the positive stuff. It's like I got to own all this negative stuff and really examine under microscope the negative aspect, because there's so much energy in the negativity that if I can use that in a different way, but if I never look at it or pretend it doesn't exist, then I'm never going to be able to grow.

Speaker 2:

If I'm not willing to say, well, I'm going to regret this If I don't do it. Like I got to know that about myself, right, like, of course, the fun stuff is the fun stuff. Yeah, on vacation or whatever, do something fun, that's easy and all that, but that's not going to get me where I want to go. That's not going to help me become who I want to become. That's not going to get you where you're trying to go if you're not willing to go. Cause everything you just said about all these different fears and stagnations, that's all regret. I'll regret if I all these things, that's going to eat you up. So it's like well, how do I set myself free now? I face it and I go. I go for it anyway, because I'll feel better failing that way than failing this one.

Speaker 1:

I mean ultimately taking responsibility. I mean a lot of the conversations we've had. You I hate to use the word passionate because it's so overused, but you get impassioned speaking about men and and how you hope that they would take responsibility for X, y, z, you name it. Talk to me about that. Talk to me about, like, what you see in men and what you want to see more of in more men.

Speaker 2:

Well, when I'm talking to them, I'm talking to myself. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Like I, one of the most influential people in my life and you've probably heard this before right now but he said like every time you're pointing your finger, there's three pointing back at you. So a lot of stuff I'm talking. It's like talking to a mirror also. Do you know what I mean? So it's like I just see, I see a lot of weakness. I see a lot of like hiding, lying, you know, and like I've been that guy. So it's not like I'm saying I'm so great, guys, you need to get on my level, like it's not. It's not like that. It's like if iron really sharpens iron, then we have to be iron. But if we're sitting around being soft and weak or being pushed around or this, or blaming and complaining and making excuses and being the victim, like if guys are doing that, that's a big fucking problem. Sorry.

Speaker 1:

You can swear, can I swear?

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's a big problem, though it's a big problem and it comes from my own life. It comes from, you know, men, that I've had in my life, both good and bad, as examples coaches, my dad, like, where I saw strength and saw weakness again, polishing these rough edges, because I think, at the end of the day, it's why. Why is Jocko so popular? Why is David Goggins so popular? Right, it's. They're talking about extreme ownership there's, there's a discipline, there's an ownership piece, there's an accountability, there's a being being willing to do these things that suck, I mean it's. It just is it's part of our nature, I think is meant to do that. But what we've also done is resolve has made an incredibly convenient, comfortable, safe, like life's pretty freaking good. You know, you turn the AC on, you turn the heat on, whatever, like it's very convenient. So we have to like instill these difficult things in ourselves, right, like why is Jocko post about waking up at 4am? Because it's a, the alarm clock goes off and you have a choice. Right, it's like the Victor Frankl thing. It's like you get, there's, something happens and there's a little bit of space before you respond, and then there's your response. Are you going to react to it? Are you going to respond to it? How are you going to show up in that moment? That sucks.

Speaker 2:

If 4am is the hardest thing you have to do and you can do, that, that's good. That's progress, right? If you hit the snooze button, you sleep in, you skip a workout, you do these different things. You're just creating this downward spiral. You're going to pull other people down with you, as I think that as men, we're supposed to be leaders. We're leading the wrong direction, myself included. Right, if I keep doing that and going against what I need to do for me to be the best version that I can, that I can be, that's going to start to be a different example and start to pull things down. So the reason I am so specific towards that is because I am one. Like I said, when I'm talking to them, I'm talking to myself too, right? This is like a reminder to myself like dude, get your shit together, wake up, do difficult things because it matters, right.

Speaker 1:

Why does it matter what's on the other side of that?

Speaker 2:

I have no idea. It only matters in the sense of like. It's like purpose driven right. So my goal is become the man like. My purpose is to become the best version of myself that I can be and then give that personal world. Out of coach he says become the man that you admire and give that man of the world.

Speaker 2:

Well, I don't admire the man who sleeps in. I don't admire the man who doesn't work out. I don't admire the man who takes the easy route. I don't admire my old self who was drinking all the time or whatever. I don't admire those things. So I don't want to embody those things and then show up in the world that way. Right, I admire the guy who gets up early, who does things that are difficult, who takes extreme ownership. You know what I mean. Those are the characteristics that I admire, because I think those are what move things forward in a positive way. Right, it's like the weak men create hard times. I want to be a strong man who creates easy times for other people. I want to make people's lives better because of what I'm doing, and if that means that my life is harder, I'm cool with that, because I want to be the kind of man who can handle it right.

Speaker 2:

But if I'm not like, how can I lead these two young men in my life? My girlfriend has two boys, 11 and 13. How can I be a good example for them if I can't be a good example for myself? And then how can I have them be around other men who are stumbling around drunk, right, it's like that's not a good example, but if that's how all the guys are showing up, then that's what these guys are going to think is the example. Do you know what I mean? So I don't even know if that answered your question. I kind of got off on a tangent, but that's why I put this stuff out. It's like what are you controlling? Are these vices controlling you, or are you controlling them, right? Sure, okay, you can have a drink, but can you not have one. You know what I mean? It's like you can skip a workout, but can you go to work.

Speaker 1:

Like who's? In control, Like do you got this dude. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I can't trust you if you don't. If I can't trust you, then it's on me, and like I would rather be able to trust you and me than only me, right? And then also like hey, man, I'm trying to get better too, and if you're not, then I can't spend a lot of time with you. I love you, man, I want the best for you, I want your life to be amazing and I'm trying to go here. I need someone If I'm really going to go there. You know what I mean. Like I need you to come with me so we can go further. I can go quick, but not as far by myself. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right. So I want these guys because, selfishly, I want more, and I know that I'm going to need other people in my life who want that too. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So, speaking of more. The last conversation we had, we talked about your next I'm going to say iteration or level of iteration. Like that. Yeah, can you hang with some big words?

Speaker 2:

Find out. I'd like just be a meathead. I don't know if I got this folk regular thing.

Speaker 1:

A trainer, meathead, yeah yeah, and sort of the level of emotional connection or emotional we've talked about this word, vulnerability and to give it a little bit of framework for the listeners, I listened to something last week.

Speaker 1:

There was two men and they were talking about sort of this next level that a lot of men are stepping into in the world and in their relationships, which is a level of emotional depth and connection that hasn't been historically required of men.

Speaker 1:

And if you look back, centuries, women were the ones that were performing spiritual rituals and they were connected in the village and community and they were the nurturers and and that is literally wired into our DNA.

Speaker 1:

It's like in our nervous system and in a man's nervous system it's like get in and get out, like hurry up and procreate before the hunter comes in and you know, hurry up and go kill that thing, and it's very protective and fast moving and not as focused on connection and that. That that is also literally hardwired into DNAs and epigenetics and men's bodies and it really hasn't been until the last 50 years or so that and I'm speaking very generalized here in terms of men and women but that the masculine has been faced with an opportunity and or a desire to go beyond that and to and make kind of like you're you were talking about your tattoos like, what does it mean to go into mental but then emotional and spiritual connection? And so I think that you are one of few men that I know there's a handful in my world that are even entertaining that convert. That sounds so negative.

Speaker 2:

What.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if that's true. I don't want to generalize that, like all men or 95% of men, won't have these conversations or explore this, but I guess that's my perception right now that there are and for the sake of conversation it's probably a good general generality to operate from.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's the same point.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so. So talk to me about that, like where are you at in that part of your journey, or what's kind of your perception? On being connected, and whether it's in a romantic relationship or just in how they show up to the world. You were talking about this guy on Instagram. You're following.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, his name is Kyle. He runs a program called super human fathers. He's a firefighter, he's married, he's got a bunch of kids, like five kids or something like that A bunch.

Speaker 1:

He's got a bunch of kids, a bunch of kids.

Speaker 2:

But like pretty masculine dude, pretty hardcore guy, and he has an ability to get on social media and be incredibly vulnerable and authentic and just like damn it's like, but it's compelling. So I think the tricky part in navigating this aspect of authenticity, honesty and things like that is how is it showing up? Cause there's a lot of guys trying to operate out of that space, especially like in the social media. It's because it's a marketing angle too, right, yeah, it could be a way to grab audience and attention. So how does it show up? So to me, you see, take this guy that I'm telling you about, this guy Kyle, and you take somebody else who's trying to do something similar, and they can, I can see them very differently. Toward this person over here, I'm going to be like dude, I'm not buying it. But this guy I'm like, oh my God, that's real.

Speaker 2:

And I think the, the authenticity and that maybe the, the movement towards it, or maybe a return to it. I mean, I don't know, I just kind of where we're at right now. It comes from the ability to just tell the truth all the time, and I don't necessarily mean like the radical honesty movement, I just mean like I think guys are lying to themselves a lot and then, as a result, they end up lying to others anything, what they want, who they want to be, why they want it Right. I don't know if it's like a fear of judgment or fear of like failure. I mean it could be. It probably comes down to a lot of different fears and things like that. But the, the authenticity, and almost how do you do it? What is the masculine version of what you're talking about, right?

Speaker 1:

I can, I feel like I know, but yeah.

Speaker 2:

But I think by and large people don't know what that example looks like.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's totally fair.

Speaker 2:

Right, like you get like an image in your head of what that might be and I don't know. I feel like it's I hate to say that's to show up right, like there's a right way to do it. It's just how. You just know it, when you see it, when you feel it.

Speaker 1:

It's like anything but soft to me for what it's worth Like. When a man shows up in truth and clarity and an openness and emotionally connected, it is like the most masculine thing and I've seen versions of like emotionally connected, that is, that lacks a spine and that lacks clarity and it's really waffly. It's actually very feminine, which energetically, is just constant movement and lacking structure and that feels Not great, if you want, like polarity in a relationship or just in the world in general. But yeah, I don't know that. We have a lot of examples of that.

Speaker 2:

So let me, let me try this, let me think. I just thought about this. When you're talking about it, if a man is balling, if he's sobbing Immediately, it's like the fuck, is that guy's deal? Yeah, no, he may have, just I mean, who knows what's going on in his life? But at first it's repelling. When a guy's getting choked up, like he's just a little choked up, you're like oh man, you know what I mean. There's like does that make sense? Like that, like that is like a. I don't know if that makes sense, but you see the two differences there, right? One looks kind of like like he's gonna be come like a puddle, right. And when a guy's like that, it's hard to. That's not if a woman's like that, that's much more like that's, that's that pulls people towards. When the guy's like that, it's like dude, pull it again.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean you guys get guys getting choked up, you're like patent them on the back. You're kind of giving like a bro hug or whatever Like there's like described.

Speaker 1:

It was John Wyland. I talk about him all the time because I've been just like taking in his information, but I heard him. He was coaching a man. The man was like you know, he's from a Latin culture, so he's like I love to dance, I love this movement, and he said there's nothing wrong with the masculine being in movement.

Speaker 1:

It's when anything, it's when you're unconscious and anything that you're doing that it lacks groundedness and depth. So you can be crying and he actually talked about he personally had a daughter die and it was very so. He's talking about how he processed grief and and he said so, I Actually was coached through how to like, ground my sit bones and create a framework for myself and let grief come up, but do it very consciously and that is different than wailing at without Structure. And it seems interesting so that he was talking about like and I so identified with this. He's like if you're just moving and you're kind of flailing around, you're kind of dancing and not thinking about it to a feminine woman she's gonna be so repelled by that. But if you're Holding a structure and you're very intentional with how you're dancing and how you're moving, that's still very attractive because it's conscious and so like.

Speaker 1:

When somebody is like super fidgety or there For a woman, it's like for a woman in her feminine that is wanting a strong masculine man, I was like, wow, that brings so much clarity to me. It's about consciousness almost all of the time. It's about are you aware? It's not even well, it's kind of another way, I guess, of saying being in control. That's like awareness, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so to me it would sound so pretty knees, like the dancing analogy. So if you know, I don't know much about dancing, but like in a lot of that stuff let's say like a, like Latin dancing, there's like Someone's leading the dance, yeah, between man or woman.

Speaker 2:

Yeah typically the man leads. Leadership is very similar to control, right, it's organized, it's there's, there's a purpose behind it, behind the movement, like it's something that they say in the military move with a purpose, right? So the movement of a man would be like more leadership and control than nature. But I don't think so. The word conscience kind of gets me a little bit, because I think I think that men think too much or they can think their way out of doing that, as opposed to like flipping back into Kind of the flow state. Yeah, masculinity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so it would be a subconscious way of showing up, not like a I'm gonna go lead and here's my left foot and then my right foot and then I'm gonna move her here, like it's yeah, maybe like that at first, but after a while that has to just flow and become the way. Yeah, like the again the being like how are you being? You're being in control, you're being a leader, you're also being in a. You're also creating a space then for other people to not have to do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah should be the feminine energy, which. So there's a. It's not like the feminine energy in my what, if I understand it correctly, which I. This is way out on a limb now, right, so I don't know, but if it is kind of that like flowy-ness, that still has to be in some type of space. That's the whole point and then, yeah, it's like here, just needs to be, structure, structure, who.

Speaker 2:

Who is being the structure, who is being the control, who's being the lead? Right that says like now, this is a place where you can go ahead and do all that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, in a relationship, that that if two people want a more polarized relationship, then it would be the masculine man or woman, like if it's a gay couple. You can go that way too, where it's like Somebody decides that they're holding this, holding the space. But the way, the reason I use consciousness, is because to me it just means awareness and intention. So like then somebody is aware of and holding the space and they've got the spine and that creates room for energy To move and magic flow, which is so great.

Speaker 2:

No intention such a great word. I think that's that's a really good way to put it. Yeah, yeah, in terms of like kind of the consciousness of like, what kind of environment are you creating, right? I mean, you do a lot of stuff with like workshops and things like that. It's very intentional. You're not just accidentally getting people in this kind of chaotic state. It's like there's very that allows them to show up a certain way.

Speaker 1:

For sure I'm creating a framework, not, okay? You ready for a hard left? Yeah, okay, so We'll see. I just got on the dating apps again, hey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah yeah, that's that one nice, I'm going on my first date this afternoon actually okay, we'll see how it goes up with that. What's going on there? What was?

Speaker 1:

it say too much, because if he ever listens to this, if he ever he better. Yeah, but I don't, I'm not gonna tell him about it right away. Okay, I mean, knows, I have a podcast, but I'm not giving him the name yet because you know it's. It is kind of a weird thing to navigate. Well, I'm like I put so much myself out there and I'm very comfortable doing that because I think it's because I'm compelled to. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:

Um, but also like in a dating scene I did. I wouldn't want somebody to go read everything about me and listen everything about me Like I want to unfold that how I want to.

Speaker 1:

Okay it's kind of we all about, I, I Don't know. Well, it would be weird if you went on a first date To me. I feel like it would be a lot if I went on a first date and was like here is my entire life story for you. It's like that's not very healthy, you don't need to know. All of that out of the game.

Speaker 2:

Who, but is your podcast, your whole life story I mean, my first episode kind of is yeah but yeah, but okay, let's put the script a little bit so. So, okay, how many of your friends know that you're going on a date with this guy? How many like? How many?

Speaker 1:

not a lot of people yet really yeah, it's nude. It's new news.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but still okay. So what I'm ultimately getting at is I feel like women become FBI agents about people. That I, their friends are dating and they dig in and you learn everything like about them. And guys like yeah, I'm going out with some girl and they don't know, you know what I mean. And they're like yeah, whatever. Okay it's like whatever, like oh, you might check it out, but like I'm not gonna like.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's fair. Yeah, you think he's not gonna go.

Speaker 2:

I don't know. I just he might be like oh yeah, I checked out, that was good for you, that's awesome. Like I don't know if he's gonna like find tooth Coleman and be like sitting there with his buddies Like did you hear what she said at this minute? And this thing like oh my god.

Speaker 1:

Too much about it. Okay, but what?

Speaker 1:

I wanted to talk about with you because I think it's fun now that I've spent five months like purposely not dating After a breakup, and so now I'm like all right, here we go, like it getting back on the saddle again, and I I think that it's so. I'm in the gym. I'm in the gym every morning. I was actually just talking to my boss, out of all people, about this. He said he had listened to a podcast where there are two men saying Isn't it weird that you could be at a gym every day where you're assuming you have a lot in common.

Speaker 1:

If I'm there at 5am and there are men there at 5am, I'm like they have all the things you were talking about, to start with the discipline. They've decided x, yz and their life is important, um, but right now there is not a gym culture of meeting people and it feels very ironic because I think that In my mind it's like oh yeah, it's just a bunch of meatheads that hit on chicks at the gym, right, which hasn't been my experience, um, but I also I don't want to get hit on like. Hit on to me feels uh, like it would be, um, like if a guy came over and was like nice sports. Bra and he's like.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's aggressive.

Speaker 1:

That would be weird, it would be very weird yeah but if somebody came over and said, hey, I see you here every day. I haven't met you yet, but my name's so and so what's your name? I wouldn't feel like hit on.

Speaker 2:

What would you feel like?

Speaker 1:

I would feel like he might be interested in me, and this is nice he introduced himself.

Speaker 2:

Which is the same as like being hit on, isn't it? Is that not?

Speaker 1:

I guess so.

Speaker 2:

And should there be a dating app for the gym, Is that you're going to launch that? Next Is? That what you even call that.

Speaker 1:

I don't know, but also at the gym when I'm there, I can't help but think about what would be the worst way to get sort of like hit on, or the most awkward way.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think the one you said was pretty. Hey, nice sports bra.

Speaker 1:

Or like if I went up to somebody and said, okay, you know like seated row. If you don't know what a seated row is, just Google it real quick. But like you're straddling a bench, right, you're sitting there, so some dude, some dude's on the bench. If I walked over and said, hey, do you mind if I work in with you? And he's like, yeah, no problem, going in means like rotating sets, except I didn't wait for him to get up and I sat down. You thought this through before. I would never do this.

Speaker 2:

But you even have that.

Speaker 1:

Will, in the morning, be laughing to myself, thinking about hilarious gym scenarios that you could.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that could be like a whole series of things. That'd be really funny actually and really weird at that action.

Speaker 1:

So I want to. So, okay, the point is that I think men oh yeah, this is what I was going to say that men are like afraid to ask out women because women have been so highly independent and are just like don't fucking hit on me at the gym or don't open the door for me, or whatever. There's been these like hyper independent and and I would call myself a feminist To me, that means that I am for equal opportunity. I also am like I'm so tired of being of wearing the pants, like in the relationship or like in all of life, that if a man were to ask me out or like quote unquote hit on me at the gym, I would be like, thank God, yeah, but I think so. So what do I want to ask you? What's your perception of men's view on that? How did they feel right now?

Speaker 2:

I'm hitting on girls.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and maybe we shouldn't like define it not as hitting on, like pursuing, let's say pursuing women.

Speaker 2:

Well, what's the incentive right now for guys to do it? What do you mean? Like, so there's dating apps. I mean you can, you can match with a thousand people. I mean, like, what's the what's the incentive to walk up to somebody? Yep. And do that Like and risk rejection being called a creep. What if it's on film? Everyone's got a camera. What if that's in the back of someone's video, like dude? There's so many things going through a guy's head that he will think himself out of even doing that Cause. Why would he?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so my second, my second plan idea was that I came up with another woman at the gym just like make t-shirts, that has a QR code.

Speaker 2:

But what is the QR code for? It's like your phone number or something.

Speaker 1:

No, no, no. It could be like a safe way to be like if you are a Jim Crush situation like here's a QR code.

Speaker 2:

Really, you just know how weird I am. It's a little passive though, isn't it still Like you're you're talking about.

Speaker 1:

I've been introducing myself to people at this point, like in a non creepy way. I'm not like those.

Speaker 2:

It's kind of hiding some creepiness, isn't it? Like you're hiding behind the QR code, so, but so are you saying like why, why don't? Why are guys not approaching girls in general, or you mean? Like yeah, let's talk about that.

Speaker 1:

Again why would they what if she says yes?

Speaker 2:

Well, what if not and odds are no, I mean most Really you have to deal with a lot more. Yeah, I mean cause. Then what Like if the guy can just sit there, if he sees a girl at the coffee shop and he could just be like, well, I could go talk to her, or I could just open up 10 different dating apps and set up a date right now with someone else.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but those dating apps kind of suck. And they're really hard to get to a date.

Speaker 2:

Really.

Speaker 1:

For me. I'm like there's like 150, some people in my thing, 10 that I've matched with and one that I'm like, yeah, we'll get to a date.

Speaker 2:

Because of the conversation or because of yeah.

Speaker 1:

Kind of all of the.

Speaker 2:

So I think there's. There's the no, I think we're getting somewhere. I think it's the ability to converse. Right, I think it's, but I also think there's. It comes back to what we talked about earlier, with guys being authentic and being truthful and whatever is the same thing in the conversation. Right, but they're, but they're not. I think that in general, guys just don't get it. They don't. They don't get that. They can just have a regular conversation. It doesn't. They don't have to say things a certain way or be a certain way.

Speaker 2:

Like it's just like dude, you got it. Unless you really mean the creepiest thing you just said on that dating app. That's really you like, you're out right. But if you're just saying things you're like, you can just say like, hey, how's it going? Do you know what I mean? It doesn't have to be, I don't know. I remember being on dating apps and just saying, hey, how's it going.

Speaker 2:

And then good, like okay, cool, what are you doing Friday night? Like, let's just, the point of this is to get to the date, it's not to go back and forth with this thing. Do you?

Speaker 2:

know what I mean. Same thing in the conversation, like if if you're ultimately I don't know, I've I've been out of the game for a long time. Like if you just started conversation you just said I heard a guy yesterday Was it yesterday? Well, it was definitely this week. He walked up to this girl at at lifetime and just started a conversation to the point where it didn't seem like like I obviously know he's trying to like get her number or whatever, but the way he did it was so normal. What did he do?

Speaker 2:

Just walked up and started talking to her. Hey, I've seen you here a couple of times, my name is so and so your your name is. And they're like oh great, what are you working on today?

Speaker 1:

Let's break it down. I feel like, okay, men, if you're listening right now and you're single and you go to the gym or the coffee shop or anywhere you see normal people, I will spoon feed it to you right now, and then you can interject your opinion. So, hey, I've seen you here before. What's your name, my name's so and so like that's the way you break the ice. It doesn't have to be creepy or weird. And then the easiest question is if the weekend just happened, hey, like how was your weekend. Or if the weekend's coming up, hey, you got any plans. That could sound like you're asking out on a date, but who cares, whatever, what are you doing this weekend? Get any plans after today? Okay, awesome, like that's it. And then you have a normal conversation, that's it. You just need a way to break the ice. It is a little tricky with headphones on at the gym, though, so you just got to not wear the headphones.

Speaker 2:

Well, ironically, one of the things as a trainer who works at a gym like like a big global gym type of thing is part of it is talking to the members. And when you talk to members, all you do is like, hey, how's it going? I've seen you doing this a couple of times. Or I've seen you here a couple of times. What are you working on today? Right, like it's the same. It's basically the same conversation. I'm not like hitting on the dude or the girl that I'm talking, it's just getting to know people.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Right, like just then, so they know who you are. But it's a different context. Obviously, the frame is different. It's like I'm a resource for you. I want you to know that I exist. So when you're working out, if you have a question, you can come talk to me.

Speaker 1:

That's the problem in general and when you just said, oh, we're getting somewhere is that we have lost a little bit of the art of like, how to like get to know people because of being online and like in all of the facets where it's like, how do I just get to know somebody anywhere? Cause I'm just in such a hurry and I don't know what to ask and I would rather just get in and get out and do my thing and not have a conversation with somebody.

Speaker 2:

And to that point, I think it's also like two results oriented how do I get this person to give me what I want? How do I get this girl to give me her number? What do I need to do to like to the point where, like I'm not even going to do it because I've thought myself out of it, as opposed to like what? If I just go find out, like what, that because they would be surprised, I'll often they'll talk to a girl and they'll be like Whoa, I do not like no, you know what I mean, Like yeah.

Speaker 2:

But now I know that, no matter how attracted I was, I'm no longer, because now, when they, when she used her words, I was out. You know what I mean. But they'll never know that because they don't even have, because they're going in with this different intention versus like. Let me just see what's up with this girl. Yeah. Just talk to her and see what she's about. Yeah. Like. What if here's a frame for guys? What if you don't like her? Right.

Speaker 2:

As opposed to like you got to be the guy who can like get the number or talk to the girl or whatever, and get this outcome and whatever it's like, why don't you go qualify her? Instead of you feeling like you got to qualify yourself for her. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

Like worthiness at the end of the day. I mean if both people approach it with like an understanding of their worth and then a curiosity, then nobody's posturing to like you know, or coming from a place of neediness or domination or weird stuff.

Speaker 2:

Well that, but it's like okay. So a girl immediately is probably going to think for the most part I'm generalizing here is like this guy wants, this guy wants to have sex with me. That's why he's talking, and the other day, that's the result he wants and he's walking up going I want to have sex with that girl. How do I get to that point? Right, so they both understand enough about what, like this end game intention is. It's kind of like primal way of being, as opposed to like we're talking about it like literally qualifying, like how to up she has to also be qualified to be with me. It's not just me qualifying myself for her right, which takes a certain level of like detachment, and but being attached to an outcome in anything. So now we're talking, we're talking about talking to you know, guy, talking to a girl, but it could be anything.

Speaker 2:

Being attached to the outcome is a huge problem. Yeah, you want the result, but, like you're not even close to that yet and if you only hook, if you connect everything like your sense of worth, respect who you are, your confidence to getting that result, you're going to miss the middle part. You're never even going to have a shot at that right Cause you're not taking the first step, which is like just have the conversation and then go thinking enough about yourself to go whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know what I mean? Yeah, I would like to get to that point, but then I don't have to.

Speaker 2:

I don't care if I do. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think the same. I mean I would give the same advice to women. I think there's so much that's like well, am I good enough? Am I going to be too much? Am I young enough? Am I too, am I whatever? All of the things instead of just but it really does. I mean it comes back to full circle in our conversation. To starting with, do you know who you are Like? Do you really know who you are and are you doing the work to clear the shit and so that you have a strong sense of self-worth and love and compassion? Like, how's your relationship with yourself, With yourself? I mean, if it's shit, if you feel like shit towards yourself, you're going to just attract, not quality stuff and show up to a situation for them like God I hope he likes me instead of understanding he also has to be qualified. Yeah, that's real, that's good. Okay, so you've inferred that a lot of the stuff quote unquote that you put out there on social media is well, you've said very directly it's for men.

Speaker 1:

You are a man and it tends to be, if I can label it, tough, love-ish, love it yeah, and as demonstrated by our conversation today and, I think, previous conversations we've had, there is a lot of love beneath the tough for people. Yeah, Talk to me about that. Like, what do you want to see for people? Like, if somebody's listening today and they're thinking like I need a trainer, I'm looking at Joe's thing, Joe's Instagram, and he's like tough love in me and I'm like fucking scared.

Speaker 2:

If you're scared, you should definitely do it, because I think that that's hitting on something that's like I think that the line between like being afraid and being excited is very thin, right, so I think it can be speaking to that. Or if somebody's like man, fuck this guy. What a dick it's like. Yeah, well, I know that feeling. I've been that guy who's like you can't tell me nothing, you can't find out. I should have listened. Do you know what I mean? Like, when I say it's tough love, it's because it's direct, it's honest, it's true, but it's real. And as much as people are attracted to it, I think the people who aren't sometimes that's hitting something right. That's feedback for them. Why is what I'm saying bothering you? If it's coming from the heart, from me, why is it stinging you? Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not trying to barbecue you because I think you're a terrible human being and I'm like this malicious. It's not evil. I'm not coming from a place of hate, but if it was hate and you hated it, I would get that. We'd have a problem, right. But and again, that's from stuff that I learned.

Speaker 2:

When I think back to when coaches would say things and I'd be super sensitive. I was like the most sensitive kid ever, like I wish I wasn't right Because it blocked a lot of things when I could. I was good at like empathizing with people. I was not good at like receiving messages of like true, sincere guidance from coaches, from my dad, these different points where I'm like, oh my God, if I were to just like swallow the pride, take it a step back and just listen to what they were saying, they did have my best interest in mind, I could have trusted them, but instead I thought they were being mean to me when really what they were trying to do was like dude, wake up to this potential, wake up to this opportunity, wake up to what we see in you. Just because they didn't know how to communicate it the way I needed to hear it doesn't mean that what they were saying was coming from a bad place. It was actually coming from a very loving place.

Speaker 2:

I looked back and I'm like, oh, like that's regrets for me. I look at that. I'm like dang, why did I not listen to that coach? Why was I tuning my dad out? He was right about so many more things. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

So my advice would be like take a step back, dude. Take a step back. You can come back to your ego. You can come back to pride at any moment, but for right now, just take a second and listen to what I'm saying to you.

Speaker 2:

I know that there's more in you than you're letting out and I can help you start that transformation for you. I can help you with the physical stuff that's gonna unlock, the mental stuff that is gonna let you be your person that you admire, the man, that you admire your purpose-driven self. That can just explode levels in your life. I know there are guys out there who maybe financially or whatever they look like they're fine. They could be millionaires, multi-millionaires, but I bet they could be even more than that. Right, and I'm not. Just because I'm not.

Speaker 2:

That doesn't mean that I can't help somebody get to their fullest expression of who they are as a man, and that's what that's about, right. It's not about the fat that they're carrying around. That's what I say to hey, dude, you're 30 pounds fatter than you should be to be healthy for your kids, for your wife, for your job. How much better could your performance be if you really stepped into your full potential, your full possibility, your full purpose. Is it tough love? Yeah, I guess, but I don't know how else to do it. I'm not gonna go the indirect route because I'm never gonna get there. I need to go straight to the heart and if that sounds abrasive or whatever, like, so be it. I have to be honest with you and the only way I'll do that is being a loving asshole is to give you this feedback, the way that this is most authentic for me to do that. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1:

That's really great.

Speaker 2:

That's really real.

Speaker 1:

That's what I want. Anytime I'm talking with anybody here, part of what I hope that I can do is ask questions that help show your heart so people see that, and I think they'll hear that from you today.

Speaker 2:

I hope so.

Speaker 1:

And your heart is for them and I appreciate how you're talking about when people were looking at you saying, wake up. Like that is from a place of you being compelled to help people wake up. So why? So they can be the fullest version of the man that they're called to be, which is fucking awesome.

Speaker 2:

I think so.

Speaker 1:

Good work Joe.

Speaker 2:

Hey, thanks, jen, appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

If people wanna get ahold of you, where do they find you?

Speaker 2:

I'll just say Instagram. My name is Joe Wisney. That's the best spot. Okay, that's where I spend the most time. I'll be in the show notes. I'll be in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

And then, yeah, okay, that'll be it. Adios amigo. Thanks, jen, peace out.

Discovering and Following Your Calling
The Transformational Journey
Facing Fear and Taking Responsibility
Exploring Masculine Authenticity and Connection
Approaching People at the Gym
Qualifying Worth and Self-Love in Relationships
Inspiring Conversation on Helping Others